Raising 4H animals destined for slaughter on public property causes concern for some
Mata Stilp, 11, walked through the pens in a livestock barn at the Lake County Fair this week, tending to the animals she and her family have raised at Wagner Farm’s 4H Clovers program in Glenview.
Among the animals were a cow named Lily and a pig named Buddy. After a couple days of showing the animals, Mata and her brother, Hans, 10, were eagerly awaiting the fair’s end.
The end of Buddy and other livestock has some activists fuming. Amid growing frustration that Wagner Farm is on Glenview Park District Land, protesters plan to demonstrate at the farm before Saturday’s auction.
For Mata, the auction is the culmination of all the kids’ hard work.
“You take them into the ring, and people bid on them,” she said.
Lily is not in the class of animals to be sold, but the children have no illusions about what will happen to Buddy -- a big winner at the fair -- after he’s purchased. Like other animals destined for auction, the slaughterhouse is his final destination.
The slaughtering of animals purchased by the families of children in the Wagner Farm 4H club has caused some controversy since the Clovers were formed in 2002 by Wagner Farm director Todd Price.
The backlash has escalated recently, and as Saturday’s auction nears, the protests have grown louder. The lawyer for a local activist has written a letter to the farm trying to halt the upcoming auction, and a protest is scheduled for 9 a.m. Saturday at Wagner Farm.
About a month ago, Glenview resident Anne Hoffman started the Eye on Wagner Farm Facebook page, which was designed to raise awareness about the 4H practices at Wagner Farm and had 181 fans as of Friday morning.
Hoffman has worked in conjunction with Debby Rubenstein, who founded the Wagner Farm Rescue Fund around the same time Price started the Clovers. Through the fund, both women have worked to place animals from the farm at sanctuaries.
Rubenstein said that while the fund worked with the Glenview Park District and Wagner Farm to re-locate some farm animals, it hasn’t had the same luck with the 4H animals.
“They said they would utilize us as a resource, but only when they choose to,” Rubenstein said.
In the late 1990s, the Glenview Park District acquired Wagner Farm, a once private, working farm, to teach people about agricultural. Thousands of people visit each year to learn about the day-to-day life of a farmer.
“When we developed the idea for Wagner Farm, the residents said they didn’t want to see a cutesy farm; they didn’t want to see a petting zoo,” Price said.
Price, who came to Glenview from a farm in Iowa, had long participated in local 4H clubs, learning skills that ranged from furniture refinishing to researching genealogy and raising beef and lamb.
He started the 4H Clovers to give Chicago area children a glimpse of rural life that they might not otherwise see, growing up in a major metropolitan area.
Park district-owned Wagner Farm is a rare vestige of farm life remaining in the urbanized near-Chicago suburbs. To Price, it seemed like an ideal location for a 4H chapter.
But to people like Rubenstein and Hoffman, it’s a problem that the farm is on park district property. Taxpayer-supported land shouldn’t be used for a program that culminates in the sale of animals for slaughter, they say.
Rubenstein, who visits the farm often, doesn’t think people know about the 4H Clovers. Hoffman said she first visited the farm a couple months ago, and did not know about the chapter.
“People walk by, they see this bucolic setting,” Rubenstein said. “I think people thought more or less that the farm would be maintained the way it was at the time of the referendum. It was no longer a family farm trying to support themselves.
“Why [Price] would start the 4H club and have the ultimate outcome be slaughter is beyond me.”
But some members of the 4H Clovers said their experience was different.
Glenview residents Tim and Mia McNary said their 12-year-old son, Patrick, is finishing up his first year in 4H, which will end with the sale of his lamb at the Lake County Fair.
Tim McNary said the entire family knew what it was getting into from the beginning. Both Price and club director Julie Tracy were up-front about the program, the responsibility involved — and the eventual outcome.
McNary said he and his wife also made it clear to their son that his animal would eventually be killed for food.
“That’s why I think it’s even more of a valuable experience,” he said. “It’s a working farm, and I think that’s one of the beauties of the experience.”
Children — and adults — in communities like Glenview often aren’t aware of the work involved getting food to supermarket shelves and to their plates, he said. 4H teaches that, he said.
Rubenstein and Hoffman, though, aren’t sure that the lesson is complete. Children could become desensitized to the realities of raising food, they said.
“If it was raising from birth to the plate, they should be going to the slaughter,” Hoffman said.
Rubenstein added that once animals are auctioned, they enter the “factory farm” system, which can be cruel.
Price acknowledged that the animals do enter a system that prepares them for mass consumption, but that process is strictly regulated by the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
The animals, he said, could not be treated better during their lives than they are through 4H. The children who care for them are at the farm several times a week to feed and tend to them, he said.
“If customers had a choice, this is how you’d want your livestock raised,” he said, gesturing to the animals at the fair.
And the children do sometimes grow attached to their animals. Hans Stilp, whose family is from Wilmette, said that although he is looking forward to the auction of his pig, Buddy, he will be sad to let go.
“I didn’t think I’d be this attached to him,” he said. “Buddy’s the only one with spots, the only one with a tail.”
At the fair, Hans Stilp hopped the fence of Buddy’s pen to tend to his pig, smothering it in hugs as they both wallowed in hay and sawdust.
His sister, Mata Stilp, showed similar affection for Lily the cow. Her involvement in 4H grew from her love of animals. Her mother, Regina Stilp, said she believes that learning how to properly care for the animals only makes that love grow.
Still, Regina Stilp said she doesn’t think the children would want to see an animal like a pig in its later days if it wasn’t auctioned. Pigs like Buddy can grow to be about 700 pounds, sometimes to the point where they cannot move, she said.
But even she admitted, “There are a lot of tears involved.”
Tracy, the Clovers leader, said she think some people who aren’t familiar with 4H misunderstand some aspects of the program, and the raising of the animals.
When asked about two letters sent to the park district by residents who said they witnessed children hitting pigs with a stick, Tracy said what they likely witnessed was children guiding the animals.
Pigs are directed around, she said, either by using a flat surface or a tap from a wooden paddle to simulate a wall.
“People not familiar with livestock tend to give [the animals] qualities they don’t possess,” Tracy said. “[The animals] aren’t thinking like people. They’re thinking, but it’s not the same.”
Rubenstein and Hoffman both said they had never been involved with 4H. But they said they learned through research that 4H does not require animals raised to be auctioned for slaughter.
Participants don’t always know about the rescue fund, and that they could arrange for their animals to be sent to a sanctuary instead of the slaughterhouse.
On Thursday, Rubenstein’s lawyer, Gary Shulman of Levun, Goodman and Cohen LLP, sent a letter to the Glenview Park District and the village of Glenview calling for Saturday’s auction to be stopped and for the animals to be sent to a sanctuary in Madison, Wis.
Shulman said his client could purchase the animals through her nonprofit organization at fair value. He declined to say whether the issue could lead to a lawsuit.
“We don’t want taxpayers to suffer as part of this agreement,” he said.
But Wagner Farm leaders and parents said taxpayers aren’t affected through the current practice. 4H families purchase the animals, and they are reimbursed through their sale. Sometimes, animals and proceeds are donated to charities, including local food pantries.
Tracy said that little about the 4H Clovers is taxpayer supported. Food, shelter, bedding and other necessities are funded through donations. Only the farm itself is supported by taxpayers through the park district, she said.
Shulman said he had no knowledge of families purchasing the animals.
Tracy and Price also said they have never heard of market animals raised 4H chapters not being sold at auction, contrary to what critics of the program have said. Children are able to participate in non-agricultural activities through 4H, and some can raise animals that aren’t used for food, Price said.
But not only would saving the market animals run counter to Wagner Farm’s mission of agricultural education, it would not provide the same learning experience for children.
Still, critics are planning to rally at Wagner Farm at 9 a.m. Saturday to protest the auction, according to Eye on Wagner Farm.
Hoffman and Rubenstein, both of whom are vegan, said they aren’t trying to force their beliefs on anyone. They said even some meat-eaters have gotten involved with the cause.
But they believe both parties can reach an agreement that allows children to continue to learn from 4H but does not involve the auction of animals.
“This is not about me, this is not about them,” Rubenstein said. “This is about the welfare of the animals.”
jdanna@tribune.com
Thank you for this fair coverage of an important story! For further information, and additional reader commentary, please read:
http://www.triblocal.com/detail/200467.html?comment_result=posted#comments-post
Thank you!
I am begging you to PLEASE not auction off the 4-H Club animals! They deserve to live out their lives as we do! These animals have been living a good life and now you are just going to sell them to somebody who will not take care of them or use them for food? That is so unfair! Please think about this carefully and teach children that animals are not just objects that can be treated any way! They have feelings as we do and do not deserve to be slaughtered! Please do not auction off these animals!!!!
"Price acknowledged that the animals do enter a system that prepares them for mass consumption, but that process is strictly regulated by the U.S. Department of Agriculture."
That unfortunately is a meaningless and erroneous statement. Animal conditions in factory farms are not regulated with any degree of appropriate attention. There are a huge number of horrible stories that anyone can find easily about downer cows, filthy conditions in slaughterhoses, lack of personnel to enforce existing laws, hormones and antibiotics given to fatten animals faster, animals kept in pens that cannot move, animals eviserated while still alive and problems in workers ignored by companies who hire illegals that cannot complain about conditions.
And I am not a vegetarian or animal rights volunteer. These things happen because we are a "capitalistic" country that places corporate concerns and needs for profit before anything, including animal welfare. What a country!!!
What is the benefit of selling these animals to slaughter when an excellent alternative exists?
Please explain.
'Rubenstein added that once animals are auctioned, they enter the “factory farm” system, which can be cruel.
Price acknowledged that the animals do enter a system that prepares them for mass consumption, but that process is strictly regulated by the U.S. Department of Agriculture.'
This makes it clear that the children really don't know or understand the fate in store for the lambs and pigs they raised and loved. Factory farms treat feeling, breathing animals like units of machinery, where they live in brutal confinement and misery, never feeling grass or sunlight or experiencing one moment of human kindness. The children are not being levelled with, contrary to what Todd Price claims. In the most cynical terms, they're being deceived.
Not only is this article poorly written, but the entire subject matter is completely ridiculous. For over a hundred years, 4H has been educating children on raising animals, farming, and other critical life skills that this country needs. Regardless of what some pampered suburbanites think, our food chain doesn't miraculously materialize at Jewel or Dominicks. There's a lot of hard work and many people involved with getting it there. There's birth, death, blood, guts, poop, and pee..facts of life. How far would we get if everyone grew up to be bankers, construction workers, technology workers, teachers, administrators, managers, executives, etc, if there was no food industry and no knowledge of how to get it to our plates? These animals ARE treated well which makes it all the more ethical for slaughter. They were not abused, injected with who knows what, or live sick.
Get a grip people.
This article deos a good job of showing two sides of the issue: those who want to kill aniimals and those who want to save them.
What a profound lesson in compassion it would be for the kids to show them that we don't need to kill these animals, that we can be merciful and spare their lives.
Of all the people on the planet, animal- and human-rights activists are the ones WITH a grip--the firmest kind of grip that there is... on global warming, mass human starvation, environmental destruction, compassionate plant-based food production, animal advocacy, human decency... I could go on.
Many times in my experience as an aniimal rescuer, I've been appalled at how little 4-H kids know about taking care of animals. They're primarily taught to get the animals big and fat as quickly as possible and kill them when the animals have barely reached adulthood. The "skills" and mindset in that approach have little resemblence to good long-term care, much less showing kindness and compassion to animals.
The UN and other prominent institutions have warned that we need to reduce our consumption of animal products to protect the earth. The American Dietetic Association has stated that vegetarian and vegan diets are healthy for all age groups, and may lower one's risk of heart disease and certain cancers. A growing number of people from animal farming backgrounds - such as Howard Lyman, who once had the largest cattle ranch in Montana - have had a change of heart and have chosen peaceful, healthy, environmentally friendly plant-based diets.
Breeding animals to overproduce flesh, milk, eggs, and offspring; depriving animals of mothers or pulling them away from their mothers long before they would natureally be independent; partly amputating body parts without painkillers, packing animals onto trucks en route for horrid slaughterhouses - according to one undercover video after another - are all standard animal agriculture practices. They are all abusive and totally unncessary.
There is no good reason to teach or perpetuate avoidable cruelty. Showing compassion is a much better lesson. and something we can all do. We 're not compelled to kill animals for food. We can create a much more peaceful world, without slaughterhouses, if we want to. In doing so, we will also reduce our impact on the earth and be able to feed more people, as studies repeatedly show.
By pulling away from cruel traditions, we will help animals. humans, and the planet. Now is a great time to start that wonderful transition.
awebsurfer wrote: "These animals ARE treated well which makes it all the more ethical for slaughter. They were not abused, injected with who knows what, or live sick." So the logic is that it is better to remove a happy animal from this earth? The lesson is that we all get a (very) brief chance at joy - Then must succumb to the time-worn, MAN MADE "reality" of an all too soon, miserable death. This is not how it has to be - This is how some choose it to be for others who cannot speak for themselves. No one wishes to die - These animals are killed against their wants - What a thing to teach kids! You can get away with anything, even killing - if "might" and money is on your side.
I think too that for all the people who say the kids know what's going to happen to the animals should be required to walk the walk and witness it... After all, this is the "most important" part of the procedure of raising animals for "food" isn't it? The moment they are transformed from a living being into the "commodity"? I think it's doing a dis-service to these kids not letting them experience the whole completeness of their participation in raising "meat"... No?
"Hoffman and Rubenstein, both of whom are vegan, said they aren’t trying to force their beliefs on anyone. They said even some meat-eaters have gotten involved with the cause." I have two problems with this statement:
First, I'd be curious if the meat-eaters understand where their food comes from and the effort it takes to get it on their plate as well as the 4-H kids do. This is a unique program, offering urban kids access to experience firsthand where their food comes from, and is being politicized only because children make news. I note that no one seems to be picketing the local Glenview butcher shop.
Second, how is lobbying to dismantle a program that many people have paid for their children to take part in, not forcing their beliefs on those people?
These adults are setting a terrible example to children, who have a natural affinity and curiosity towards animals. Animals behaviour is innocent and it is unconditional, the same as a childs. Why do you want to 'toughen' up these children and make them lose their innocence? They're young for only a short time, so please allow them to be children.
Hard-hearted, uncaring children not only become cruel and unkind to the animal kingdom, but also towards other children.
Kindness and compassion are very good qualities to have - there is too much hatred, abuse, torture, and violence in the world.
We have a tendancy to think we are the superior species and that everything else is inferior. Whilst we are getting rid of nationalism, racism and, sexism, we need to get rid of speciesism.
'Speciesism is a prejudice or bias in favour of the interests of members of one's own species and against those of members of other species.' Peter Singer, Animal Liberation 1975.
They can still have their program, just not on taxpayer-supported land.
Mercy is the noblest of all human qualities. It's what we show when we are at our absolute best. Show the children in this program that the adults around them are capable of showing mercy, of demonstrating kindness and compassion and gentleness and understanding. What an opportunity this is to teach children that we can pull together and do the right thing, that when we say that people are the rational, moral animals, that really does mean something, that we are not callous and lacking in regard for the other sentient beings with which we share this Earth.
These animals don't have to die. This is their last chance. Please, please, please. For the animals. For the children. Show them mercy. Show them compassion. Show them love.
The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest:
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes.
Show mercy toward these animals. There is a merciful alternative. Don't kill them. For the animals, for the children, please don't do this. It's not necessary to take these lives.
LOL - I'm not sure you want to be quoting Shakespeare, who for darn sure wasn't a vegetarian.
FWIW, we fish - and kill, clean, and gut the fish ourselves. I agree with you - if you are going to eat meat, I think it's important to know that you're taking a life, so you don't take it for granted, and that's one thing kids learn in 4H. Vegetarians should think about the animals they starve to death due to habitat loss - Farming and logging have severely disturbed at least 94% of temperate broadleaf forests.
Eating is an inherently destructive act.
I believe if you choose to eat meat, then you should kill it yourself. And if you kill something, then you had better eat it.
However, I tend to agree with the slaughterhouse comments. This is where 98% of your meat comes from (and dairy, which is no better).
I think it is great to show kids where their food comes from, so that they can make sound choices. I wish I would have had that when I was a kid. But they need to see the REAL deal. They should see the estimated 5-10% of beef cows for which the "stun gun" is ineffective; who go through the hide ripper alive; whose eyes are looking around, and they moan, as they are slowly and torturously killed. Or the chickens that are hung upside-down on an assembly belt, waiting to get decapitated. How about the baby pigs that don't grow fast enough, who are slammed into concrete walls out of the farmers' frustration? And the leghorn hens, stuffed into battery cages with their beaks cut off, laying eggs for you? Disgusting.
Yeah if I was a kid and I saw that, I would have gone vegan at that very moment. So PLEASE don't candy-coat it. Let the kids SEE the ENTIRE slaughter process, and the TRUE nature of factory farming. There is no humane way to slaughter an animal. "Family farms" is not synonymous with "kindness."
Lastly, what about options?! Why not introduce children to HEALTHY plant-based food choices? It is no wonder there are so many morbidly obese kids. As a nation, we are encouraging them to eat animals and animal products, then we wonder why there are so many young people with insulin resistance, fatty livers, hypertension, heart disease, etc.
By encouraging children to kill animals, you are promoting cruelty AND you are making the kids unhealthy. Way to go, 4H and Wagner Farm.
MASTER_SHAKE - That's not really so now is it? We "tree hugging vegans" have presented a plethora of valid reasons to avoid harming innocent life when it is possible to do so. Why is this idea "stupid" to you?
I know many parents who are desperately trying to instill this value in their young children... To be kind whenever you can be. Even for me, 57+ years ago, it is what my parents taught me as well. Are you saying these parents are all flawed in what they are trying to impress upon their children? We've articulated this idea of compassion, along with the many other rational points regarding "animal killing" and "meat consumption". And these points and the way they've been presented are anything but "stupid".
Perhaps if YOU could verbally communicate the reason for this accusation - We "tree hugging vegans" might better address your concern. I for one would be happy to engage you in a little intellectual spar. Please clarify: what exactly to you, is "stupid"?
This makes me so angry. I am one of the two people who wrote a letter to the park district regarding the pigs being hit. The pigs were being HIT with these sticks. Last time I felt a wall, as this guiding stick is supposed to simulate, the wall did not jump out and HIT me. I had to shield my daughter from seeing the abuse against these animals but it was impossible for her not to see it. It was horrible. Yes, animals are not humans, but they can certainly feel pain including that of a raised stick against their skin. And, by the way, aren't pigs supposed to be rather intelligent animals? It is ludicrous to describe these wooden sticks as guiding tools. I would not have felt the need to shield my daughter from a pig being guided against something that felt like a wall. This is outrageous. Call it like it is. Animal abuse.
Thanks to the author for a well-balanced article and one that contains verifiable facts, unlike so many of the inaccuracies posted in the comment sections of the several articles recently posted here. Still, there are two things I think should not go without some attention called to them.
One is this idea that a 4H club should not be using a taxpayer-supported facility if animals raised there are going to be sent to slaughter. This is a very curious notion, given that meat eating is, last time I checked, entirely legal in Glenview. (They better raid Hackney's if it's not.) So basically the argument is, "An entirely legal activity should not be allowed on public property if a couple of vegetarians disapprove of it." Do other groups get a similar veto on public activities? Can a church group veto gays having a picnic there, and an atheist group veto church activities, and so on? Who is so privileged by the fact of paying taxes as to get this right of veto over their fellow citizens who also pay taxes? The fact of any public usage requires a certain degree of tolerance toward what will happen there when your fellow citizens use it.
The other is, let's keep this protest in a realistic context. Though we have out of towners posting (incessantly and repetitively) at TribLocal, last Saturday I was told that the protesters at the farm numbered exactly... three. Meanwhile a few hundred people at least shopped the Glenview Farmers Market. I will be curious to hear if tomorrow's turnout comes any closer to remotely justifying the phrase "critics are planning to rally." Not sure what the precise definition of a rally is, but three barely makes a game of bridge, let alone a notable political movement.
As a 4-H parent, I posted an account of our collective experience which I hope any reader will also read before making up their mind (a vain hope, to judge by the comments). You can read it here: http://www.triblocal.com/Glenview/detail/201671.html
Isewell, that is horrible and I am so sorry that happened to you and your child. I am very glad you shared your experience. This truth must be told so that others will now how it really is and what they really teach 4-H children at Wagner Farm. Thank you.
MASTER_SHAKE I have reported your inappropriate comment as follows: Immature (read childish) name-calling does not promote thoughtful discussion of this serious topic. I hope you will control yourself in future and attempt to engage in intelligent discussion if you have issues with anyone here. Thank you.
Knowing the program as I do, I believe if Isewell's story were accurate, the kid would at minimum be very close to being expelled from the program. Although pigs are, admittedly, large and heavy animals who need a certain amount of exertion to be handled, I simply do not believe for a moment that the incident, if it happened at all, happened the way it's being portrayed. That's not how the kids are, it's not how the program is. I can't speak as to the morals of animal activists, either local or far away.
It's a farm, doing what farms do. ..And what right do these people think they have where they can claim other peoples children don't need to be a part of 4H. Well, what if they want to participate in 4H in the manner the choose? What if it is an interest. Should we stiffle someone's interest because Ms Hoffman & Ms Rubenstein feel children don't "need" 4H. I don' think so.
I don't believe in forcing religion, politics and eating habits on people. Why don't these people leave Historic Wagner Farm alone! They should be spending their time and money helping the people and animals in the Gulf oil spill or the people in Haiti. Those are some REAL problems. Help and feed the many orphaned children right here in the USA. Help the poor horses that are being slaughtered in Florida right in their own stalls.
Master_Shake, we're smart enough to know that one of the most fundamental tenets of lmorality is the obligation to try to refrain from inflicting avoidable harm on others. We're smart enough to know that these animals don't want to be killed, and that we don't need to kill them. You're smart enough to know this, too; I'm sure of it. Just be kind. Follow the golden rule. It's so much simpler and more rewarding than trying to defend unnecessary violence and cruelty.
All this talk about death and slaughter and killing and the wanton destruction of innocent lives, I am filled with despair that these animals will die. It seems hopeless. Their hourglass is running out. They've become pawns in a vicious human game of tug-of-war, of pride and prejudice, power and deceit. All we can think to do at their most desperate hour, is bicker and spew hatred and spit venom at one another. All the while, their dearest possession, their lives, are in our hands. We have dominion over them.
Can we not open our eyes and see these beings as the blessed creation of God that they are, worthy of the life He gave them? Surely it is abhorrent to see His creation destroyed. They were not made to be food:
Genesis 1:29-31 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food. And it was so. God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all.
Each little flower that opens,
Each little bird that sings,
He made their glowing colours,
He made their tiny wings.
Their fate is in your hands. Blessed are the merciful. May God have mercy on your souls. Bless the beasts and the children. Hear our prayer, oh God.
@Mike Gebert - Yes killing and eating animals is "entirely legal" - But so was the right to own humans once. And I'm very sure the first few visionaries who spoke out against that practice were shooed away like flies too... But in the end our moral compass always points towards justice and compassion - And isn't it wonderful that we are the species gifted to use free will and wise enough to know what bounty kindness can foster?
It’s a matter of taking the side of the weak against the strong, something the best people have always done.
~Harriet Beecher Stowe
@livelovelaugh - "Should we stiffle someone's interest...?" My neighbor's child has a penchant for playing with matches. Now granted, it is their home, but if it catches fire... It endangers mine too. And likewise society isn't a vacuum either. When bad things are put in the river of cultural "ethics", it threatens my little piece of the pond too. That is why using and killing animals is not a case of an isolated "preference" that effects no one - It effects everyone.
Also, discussing ideology and debating is not "forcing" anything on any one. Indeed the ones who advocate killing animals are the ones doing all the "forcing". We are just voices, hearts and minds protesting such unnecessary acts. Try walking a day in vegan shoes - avoiding animal "products" as much as you can... Then you'll really get an idea of who is "forcing" whom.
Finally, I think you'll find that those who "stick up for the underdog" are the ones most likely to be champions regarding other issues as well. There is nothing saying one cannot care about more than one thing at a time. I AM a "stakeholder" in what happens to MY culture:
Teaching a child not to step on a caterpillar is as valuable to the child as it is to the caterpillar. ~Bradley Millar
... And I might add "valuable" to our civilization as well.
Hi- It seems like it the same people saying the same thing over and over again. You say that yes, you do care about other things, but how can you if you spend all your time here posting? You do not even know where the animals are being butchered, and why are you just focusing on these animals, when all the animals being auctioned off are going to be butchered. You are not offering sanctuary for the other animals being auctioned off.
Most of the animal activists posting here are not from the Chicago area, and really have no business telling the parents and the children what they must do. You do not own these animals. The 4-H group owns the animals, and the children know exactly what they are getting themselves into. I even looked at the website for the 4-H club, and all new members are required to take an ethics class. Thanks, Nancy
Hi- Nobody has mentioned Michael Pollan. He is a food writer, who is into sustainable food production, and he says that one can eat meat and still have a sustainable diet. He says to eat small amounts of ethically raised meat, and combine it with large amount of grains and fruits and vegetables. In the documentary Food, INC., the maker of the film comes out against factory farms, and for humanely raised meat.
I have heard Howard Lyman speak a few times, and he is a very persuasive speaker, but he has a tendency to stretch the truth. He makes people think that many people who have been diagnosed with Alzheimer's, really have Mad Cow Disease. Howard also tells people that the cause of most cases of cancer is meat consumption, which is not true. Mr. Lyman is the one that got Oprah in hot water with the Cattleman's Association. .
Please, please reconsider sending these animals to slaughter. These (baby) animals have been cared for and loved by children, who I'm certain if had the choice, would choose for them to live. Teaching children about agriculture, teaching children about life experiences, teaching children about animals DOES NOT have to be at the expense of a life, or many lives. Of course there are tears involved!!!! This entire thing is heartbreaking to say the very least. I think that teaching compassion and empathy to our children is much more admirable. There are wonderful alternatives available, please reconsider.
I am horrified by this story and quite speechless. Please don't auction off these innocent animals. They have a right to live, they deserve to live !!
You want an issue to complain about, complain about the slaughter going on on city streets!! We have been eating animals for 10,000 plus years, and slaughtering each other for longer. The 4-H program teaches kids that the cuts you buy in a supermarket had to start somewhere. You want to complain about wasting taxpayer dollars, look to your local and state governments. Instead of saving a few animals, how about feeding a few hungry kids. This is a stupid argument, for people with more money than sense, who have their priorities so skewed they can't see the forest for the trees.
If you want to teach the children about growing food, have them plant a garden. Lets plant seeds instead of raising animals. A plant based diet is healthier and doesn't involve the suffering or slaughter of innocent animals. It is sustainable, better for the environment and could eliminate world hunger. Lets plant the seeds for a better future for all.
"Yes killing and eating animals is "entirely legal" - But so was the right to own humans once."
And Hitler was a vegetarian. There, now the dumbest soundbites from either side have been said.
There were more than three people at the protest; they just weren't all there at the same time.
For the record, it's well-documented that Hitler was not a vegetarian: http://supervegan.com/blog/entry.php?id=771 He and his henchman were, however, obsessed with breeding, and designed their death camps after the Chicago slaughterhouses, as detailed in "Eternal Treblinka," by Charles Patterson.
My inference is that the mention of human slavery was merely to point out that "legal" does not necessarily equate to "right" or "moral."
If you want your children to children to experience the entire process of animal to meal, accompany them in a transport truck tightly packed with pigs or lambs or cows. Then watch as your humanely raised animal goes through the assembly line at the slaughterhouse. Allow them to hear the sounds of distress and smell the blood. Let them watch as their well-cared for animal has his/her throat slashed and is drained of blood. Humane slaughter is an oxymoron <3
It has been said that, 'Custom will reconcile people to any atrocity.' By now it should be painfully obvious that the world beyond the immediate sphere of Illinois is watching to see whether Wagner Farm chooses compassion over cruelty as it's new paradigm. Those who literally hold the power of life and death in their hands can look back as having made a pivotal, life-affirming changes to what could become a NEW, time-honored tradition. There's a golden opportunity here to embrace and extend the tenets of 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' and 'Do Unto Others'' to 'all' beings, beginning this very day, with those pigs and those lambs.....
What will become of all these 'food' animals' in the long run remains to be seen, but I know that there are legions of us more than ready to put these new ethics to action and to help work that out. Will you stand with us? Or will you wash your bloody hands of it? The world IS watching, and until the first precious lamb is slaughtered, there IS still time to be able to look back and say, 'It was scary at first, but I was part of something wonderful and new!"
Simply put Rubinstein and Hoffman need to stop slamming 4H. From their comments and complaints it is apparent that they have no idea what they are talking about. I was extremely fortunate to have been raised on a farm in Michigan. My family grew soybeans, wheat and corn and raised hogs and beef cattle. As soon as I was old enough to do chores I was acute aware of where those animals would end up. Our Dad taught us that animals deserved to be given the best care possible as we raised them. This is exactly what 4H is for.
Obviously, every kid cannot grow up on a farm. I was in 4H 40 years ago and a majority of the members were kids who did not live on farms. When a kid is in 4H they learn how to properly care and raise their animals. It teaches kids discipline as they quickly learn it's not easy and sometimes not fun to do their chores every day but because their animals depend on them they must do them. Growing up, raising animals, I did name some of my animals but I still knew they would go to the slaughterhouse at the end. The hope of every 4H kid is that their animal would end up at one of the best restaurants in town. When 4H kids auction their animals at the fairs they truly have earned the money they receive for each animal they sell. Many times the money earned goes into their college savings accounts.
Chicago has multiple farmers markets, some with free range eggs and poultry and grass fed beef, that have not been fed antibiotics or growth hormones. People flock to these farmers markets because the produce is richer and the meat is pure. There is a huge shift in the pendulum of consumption where people want antibiotic, hormone, pesticide, genetic modification free food. A majority of the farmers that participate at the farmers markets started out in 4H. Keeping 4H alive and protected to allow kids to raise their animals is a vital component to ensure future farmers markets. 4H can only preserve production of organic vegetables and livestock, preventing growth hormones, antibiotics and mass production which diminishes the quality and has the potential to pass on bacteria and diseases.
The article and comments have acknowledged some less desirable 4H clubs and I am sure if you look at any organization you'll find some sub groups less desirable. This does not mean that the entire organization is less desirable. Instead of attacking the entire program why not support the program by giving kids more opportunities to experience a well running 4H club.
I have read the most stupid responses in the world on this subject. I would be willing to bet that 99% of the people commenting have never been to a farm or even seen a cow/pig/sheep outside of a zoo or maybe driving down the road.
Everyone claims to be an "expert" and have inside knowledge to what goes on. None of you do. All of you are just full of hot air.
Listen, pigs, cows, sheep, etc are not raised as pets. Maybe all the farm animals in the world should just be let loose to roam freely?
If people start raising dogs/cats for slaughter, then maybe people would have a gripe.
All of you "activists" who THINK you know, go get an education, quit believing everything you read and find a "real' hobby, something that you might actually understand. And please, quit drinking/eating anything with milk...stop wearing anything that contains leather, etc.
Dear Janet Weeks...
Please explain why animal - human right activist have a grip? No where in your post do you explain your simple statement. How do you have a grip on global warming? How do you have a grip on mass human starvation? How do you have a grip on environmental destruction? How do you know anything about compassionate plant-based food production?
Please go on and explain all of these claims you make. Making a claim does not make you a person with knowledge. Please share with all of us the education that you have received that makes you an expert in all of these fields????
In reality, you probably know nothing about the above mentioned subjects.
Auqadoc...I see you have watched television or read some books. How much of what you write have you actually witnessed in person? I bet zero.
Second, these animals are only on earth to be consumed. If there was zero consumption, cows, chickens, sheep, pigs would be extinct as they have been domesticated to be used as feed-stock. There would be zero use for those animals. Is it better to have lived or never to have been born?
Mike Gebert...I am on your side, but tax money does not pay for churches, etc. Church goers pay taxes, but religion is separated from the state, read the Constitution of the United States of America.
People might pay more attention to your words if you actually posted correct information, not information made up to suit your agenda.
Janet Weeks, if it was not for the consumption and use of these animals, none of them would have ever been born. Is it better to be born and live a life or never to be born???
Tumeria,
A human needs so many essential amino acids to be healthy...did you know that there is one amino acide humans need that can only come from a meat source?????
What caused the great dust bowl in the early 1900's? Over farming...lol, is great for the environment.
Why do humans have incisors??? For eating meat. I sure hope you do not wear or own anything that comes from an animal source, such as leather
What else do you need to know?
Johnny, johnny, johnny, johnny, OOPS, johnny, OOPS, johnny, johnny, johnny johnny. I do not know where to begin. It is pointless reasoning with a person of your ilk.
Let me just say this. As soon as one of you in favor of killing these animals answers the two vital questions on every animal activist's lips, and that you all neatly skirt, then, perhaps, I will respond to your insulting queries:
1. Will you transport your 4-H children with their animals to the slaughterhouse where they might participate in the final step of the process of learning "where their food comes from"?
2. Will you let your 4-H children choose whether their animal lives or dies? Bobby, Susie: Would you rather have $300 for your lamb and let the lamb live, or would you rather have $300 for your lamb and have the lamb slaughtered?
@Nancy @1:51AM - "Saying the same thing over and over again"... Yes, this is what happens when you're telling a truth that is imperative to be understood. You start sounding redundant because "rational" people just don't get it!
It doesn't matter that we are all not in the Chicago area. I think I made it clear before that what is done to a culture effects us ALL... We are ALL "stakeholders" in the way a society is brought up. Especially with such negative and abusive indoctrinations towards helpless beings. Be certain, this is "our business" too.
And BTW you must not care about anything other than this subject either, measuring your time commitments here. Why aren't you protesting against the oil spill in the gulf, or speaking for the "starving children"?
I too have seen the "ethics" policy of 4H. It is all centered on a value system that excludes animals from moral consideration. Children are encouraged and expected to treat the animals "with care" - "to raise a healthy food product". It's the same "ethic" as the American Meat Association... You know, the ones who slaughter 10 billion animals a year. You may call anything "ethical" whether it is or not is an entirely different story. In this case... It is bung.
@pavel556 @ 3:57AM - I don't think you realize but vegans are against any harm done to all life. This would include the senseless murders done to humans too. Yes, we may have been eating animals for a very long time... But just like war and other horrors - It does not mean we need to continue to do so. There are better ways.
But those ways don't happen by reducing living beings into "cuts", "parts" and "pieces". It is done by respecting the whole and keeping the integrity of that life sacred for it's own sake - Not subject to our whims and wants. There is no "reason", NO "NEED" to kill animals. In fact, your concern with feeding the hungry is tied to "meat" and animal agriculture. Our present food system concentrates on fattening animals instead of feeding people. Our resources would go much further, (by about a billion people) if we focused our civilization on a plant based diet.
@ mrtrumbe @ 12:12 PM - "Mind your own business. It is both perfectly legal and acceptable to eat animals for food. Further, most people find meat eating to be morally and ethically acceptable." I'd like to make it absolutely clear that we do not live in a vacuum. What happens to a culture 2,000 miles away effects me as well. Social values pour into the same river - It all winds up in my pond too... Therefore we all have just reason to be protesters to this activity. And most people do NOT find meat eating to be morally and ethically acceptable when given a chance to THINK about it. The only ones that don't have a problem are the numb and unaware. Those who are psychologically and emotionally asleep. I know from experience a thousand times over that when you present the idea that "meat" was gotten from killing an animal - Most would rather NOT KNOW. This means they are not comfortable with the truth... And meat eating is only "acceptable" if it is not closely examined.
"Comparing the plight of the Jews or Africans abused by slavery is not only a distraction from the discussion at hand, but is incredibly insulting to those people who were truly abused."
Violence is violence no matter if the victim has 2 legs or four. You are "othering". You are putting yourself, or rather your species in a position of being "better" than - More worthy of life than any other species. By what "right"... Besides sheer "might" and "tradition"?
"Animals do not have the same rights as humans, no matter how much you would like them to. " Actually, I disagree. I do believe that we all have the "right" to our lives. We each are given only one - And we all value that one life equally. One may, through custom or law "steal" that right to one's life... But it doesn't change that that "right" existed to begin with. Just because "rights" are not recognized - Does not mean they don't exist. They are just not honored... that's all.
"thousands upon thousands of animals are killed every day" Actually, that would be millions and millions - and millions. 10 billion land animals a year in fact... Which is why you can understand the urgency to halt this insane and unnecessary blood bath... Or holocaust. I don't know that you would have been a champion for Jews, American Indians, Black slaves, or even "women as property"... After all - It was perfectly "acceptable" to use and own these people too. And if that's the standard you're using... "social mores" - - - Well then, how could anything unjust ever change?
@ johnnyrepp - There is only one thing that is really important to know: Innocent animals are killed with "need". That's it. No "expert" can add or take away anything from this. It doesn't matter how it's done, how "well cared for" the animals is prior, or how much money will be made in the process... It all comes down to innocent life unjustly being stolen. Simple.
But I must ask - What would be so "wrong" in killing cats and dogs for food? They do it in Asia? Are you saying you dis-approve of them? Are you trying to lay your ethics on their culture? In fact, if anything - we might say people in Asia have much more "need" of animals as "food" than we here in Chicago, or Los Angeles, or Miami/New York... Any of us has thousands of other options besides those that entail taking an innocent life --- Just because an animal was "raised" to be slaughtered - doesn't make that act any more right than if it was raised to be a pet. In both situations the animals value their lives equally... Just like you or I value our own.
Finally... No milk - no dairy - no eggs, butter, cheese, circuses, rodeos or leather - I agree. We should all stop using these things made from the exploitation of helpless creatures. I have discontinued... Will you?
incisors??? Surely we are not going to let our dentures dictate our ethics??? But in case there's any doubt about our "cuspids" or other parts of human anatomy made to thrive on a plant based diet - Please see The Comparative Anatomy of Eating. by Milton R. Mills, M.D
http://www.scribd.com/doc/94656/The-Comparative-Anatomy-of-Eating
BeaElliot
I wonder if you realize that very few animals in the wild die from old age. Most of the wild animals will be eaten by predators, or starved to death. Slaughterhouse is not that bad of an alternative.
Also, animal products are not just what you listed - animal products can be found in bakery, candy, breads, jellos, some pills, cosmetics, clothes and other items that you would never even think come from animals.
Humans are apex predators. Time to stop looking at the world through ideological glasses. Just because you live in the city away from the wild does not stop you from being a predator.
And regardless of what vegans say - humans need animal products to live normal, healthy lives.
Johnny. Humans do not have incisor teeth for eating meat. I suggest you look in a couple of anatomy and physiology books and compare the jaw and teeth structure of a carnivorous animal such as a lion, to that of a human animal.
Your tiny incisor teeth do not overlap your bottom teeth (I hope!), nor does your jaw only move up and down. Our incisor teeth are for piercing fruit and our molars for grinding grains, this is why human animal jaws move both up and down and from side to side.
Human animals are unable to rip into the tough hide of an animals using these tiny incisor teeth, nor tear raw flesh off the bones, and would become very ill indeed if they ate their meat raw and dripping with blood.
Instead, someone else does the dirty work and slaughters thousands of sentient beings every day to end up on your plate.
Also, the differences in the anatomy of the intestinal tract are very obvious. A lion's intestinal tract is approximately 12 feet long, for the purpose of eliminating waste quickly from it's body. The intestines in human animals are approx 24 feet long. When human animals eat COOKED meat, it takes up to 3 days for the putrifying flesh to be fully eliminated. There is a high incidence of stomach. colon and bowel cancers. Would you be able to prove that this has no relation to human animals eating meat?
'People often say that humans have always eaten animals, as if this is a justification for continuing the practice. According to this logic, we should not try to prevent people from murdering other people, since this has also been done since the earliest of times'.
--Isaac Bashevis Singer
'If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian. We feel better about ourselves and better about the animals, knowing we're not contributing to their pain'.
--Paul and Linda McCartney
'We stopped eating meat many years ago. During the course of a Sunday lunch we happened to look out of the kitchen window at our young lambs playing happily in the fields. Glancing down at our plates, we suddenly realized that we were eating the leg of an animal who had until recently been playing in a field herself. We looked at each other and said, "Wait a minute, we love these sheep--they're such gentle creatures. So why are we eating them?" It was the last time we ever did'.
--Linda and Paul McCartney
"Think occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight."
- Albert Schweitzer
'If any kid realized what was involved in factory farming, they would never touch meat again. I was so moved by the intelligence, sense of fun, and personality of the animals I worked with on Babe that by the end of the film I was a vegetarian. ~ James Cromwell
The life expectancy of a cow is 20 years, do you know that bull calves reared for beef only live until they are 12-14 months of age? These are the 'fortunate' ones, whose lives are spared at birth, because 80,000 bull calves are shot shortly after birth every year, just because they're the 'wrong' sex and won't make the beef and dairy industry any profit.
Some others end up being reared for veal, or 'rose' veal; kept in dark, narrow crates all of their short, pitiful lives, and fed a liquid diet to ensure their flesh is kept as tender as possible.
The 'lucky' female calves are cruely snatched within 12 hours of birth from their mothers sides and never get to drink her nourishing milk again, and in most cases never see her ever again. Instead, their milk is stolen for human animal consumption.
Can you imagine how distressing this is for both mother and calf? The bellows of the mother calling for her baby until she grows hoarse; the anguished cries of her baby when it is snatched away, never to return?
The babies are fed a milk-substitute, until they reach the age when they are ready to have their first pregnancy, crudely artificially inseminated. And so begins their existence (you can hardly call it a decent life) of the perpetual cycle of pregnancy and calving, just so the milk for all of their babies can be stolen again for human consumption.
I was weaned from my own mother during babyhood, and at the age of 30 realised I did not need to consume the baby milk meant to be for another animal. If human animals require milk after babyhood, then why not drink that of an ape, or a dog, or cat, or giraffe or an elephant?
Dairy cows are usually 'spent' by the time they reach the age of just 4 years old and simply dispatched to the slaughterhouse because they're unable to produce any more calves. Just like that. They have no option to live the rest of their estimated 16 years of life grazing in pasture (well, confined in factory farms more likely).
Every animal deserves a long and decent life. I personally think it would be better if thousands weren't born every year. The mothers deserve not to be forced to calve every year, and to keep the babies they do have.
Instead, they are only born in order to be forced to grow rapidly with the aid of growth hormones until they reach their 'target weight' for beef when they're just over one years of age, or end up in 'inferior' quality foods such as beefburgers, sausages and mince when they're 4 years old. So, either way, they end up in the food chain and on your plate before they've had much chance to live.
@thedimon If you attack Bea or anyone else from a faulty assumption of who you imagine they are, what you imagine they know, where you imagine they live, or what you imagine they do, then you attack illogically and in error. None of us is stupid as you are prone to imagine. We are probably more aware than most where animal products lurk and we avoid them like the plague. This is true of Bea and this is true of me. We cannot avoid all hidden animal products, byproducts, and secretions, but we do try and we are constantly vigilant and read all labels with magnifying glasses. We are well aware animal products are found in all of the items you list--and many more. We avoid them.
Furthermore, animals living in the wild have a choice. Farmed animals have none. Of course, we realize some animals are eaten by predators and some die of starvation. Their predators, however, do NOT mass breed them, keep them locked up their entire lives in cruel cages, crates, and "gestation" stalls, or create weapons and assembly-line machines to kill and package them in plastic. The animals eaten as prey have a fair chance to escape. Farmed animals have none. As an animal, I would rather have a chance at life than none at all. Remember, too, that massive numbers of humans die of starvation each year, largely due to the mass production of your "cheap meat."
Finally, show me your research that says "humans need animal products to live normal, healthy lives." Site me your source. My doctor tells me I am among the healthiest patients he has. From all the research I've done to ensure my own good health, there is no nutrient my body needs that I cannot obtain from my plant-based diet. At age 60, I am active, energetic, lean, trim, mentally vital, and alert. I've never felt better or more "normal" in my life. I can't say the same as when I was a meat-eater several years ago.
Now, will someone please answer my simple questions:
1. Will you transport your 4-H children with their animals to the slaughterhouse where they might participate in the final step of the process of learning "where their food comes from"?
2. Will you let your 4-H children choose whether their animal lives or dies? Bobby, Susie: Would you rather have $300 for your lamb and let the lamb live, or would you rather have $300 for your lamb and have the lamb slaughtered?
"Mike Gebert...I am on your side, but tax money does not pay for churches, etc. Church goers pay taxes, but religion is separated from the state, read the Constitution of the United States of America."
As you say, churchgoers pay taxes. My point is, lots of people have a strong feeling about this or that for whatever religious/ethical/whatever reason, that doesn't grant them veto power over any activity paid for with taxes.
Is it over? Have the animals been auctioned? Many people from Australia to the UK and all across the US are asking the same question: What is the outcome for the lambs and pigs? Have they been saved? Could someone please tell us the outcome? Thank you.
Hi- The 4-H kids know what is going to happen to their animals, and they are fine with that. The animal rights people should get over it. These animals are not meant to be pets. If you do not want to eat meat, you do not have to. You do not have the right to tell other people that they can not eat meat.
I hate smoking, but it is legal in this country, and probably will be for eternity, and there is nothing I can do about it. No way are they going to ban cigarettes in this country. They tried to do that with alcohol, and it did not work.
Hopefully now that the auction is over, the animal rights people will move on. Thanks, Nancy
Where are the animals now? Have they been taken from the fairgrounds? What will happen to them next? Please answer these questions. Many people from Australia to the UK and all across the US are asking. I think we deserve to know. Thank you.
Hi- The animals were auctioned off this afternoon.
Sweet, I should be able to get some Buddy Bacon in the not-too-distant future.
Had some pork butt for dinner this evening ... couple of days with a dry rub and slow barbeque until fork tender.. YUM. sooo good.
"Even in the worm that crawls in the earth there glows a divine spark. When you slaughter a creature, you slaughter God." ~Charles Darwin
I notice some have quoted the Bible, Shakespeare, and now we have Darwin - not to mention Paul McCartney, that famous 4H musician! How about this? - "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image,...and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the LIVESTOCK, over ALL the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."...you see, dear vegan "anti-4H" people, the Creator of the universe has given us "dominion" (in the KJV) over the animals.
I thought you all were going to come to the fairgrounds? What happened? I didn't see any of you there. What a shame. I'm sure all the people who raise livestock FOR A LIVING would have been all too happy to see you. I'm sure they would have given you a rousing round of applause for trying to stop their livelihood. I'm sure they would have been thrilled to pieces to hear and watch how you torment young children. Scaring them 1/2 to death with your presence and your ignorant spewing of 1/2 truths and convoluted ideas about farming, agriculture and the 4H program.
You are vegan, I am a gardenener. How can you mercilessly slice tomatoes with sharp knives and eat them? Plant potatoes and then boil them? Microwave broccolli? Do you know how much damage you are doing to these plants? Why not let them go to seed so they can make new little baby plants?
Nancy is more than right, can't you just "let this go"?! Obviously none of you has ever lived on a farm, participated in 4H, or probably even have children - thank goodness! - You truly do not know whereof you speak. And to the woman from Michigan - the club at Wagner is an EXCELLENT club and they do not "hit" the pigs or any other animal. You guys really should go to the packing house yourselves. Stop them...quit picking on the kids and pick on somebody your own size.
"Even in the worm that crawls in the earth there glows a divine spark. When you slaughter a creature, you slaughter God." ~Charles Darwin
"Then God said, "Let us make man in our image,...and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the LIVESTOCK, over ALL the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." - God
Let's see, who should I listen to: Charles Darwin or God? Yeah, that one answers itself pretty easily.
BRING ON THE SPARERIBS!!!!!!!
To TheCapitalist...interesting that you quote the Bible and spout profanity at the same time..oh well, I really don't have time for the unevolved bottom-feeders this morning....just wondering though how loud your "YUM!!!!!!!!" will be and how wide your grin when your get the first roto-rootering to your arteries...oh yeah, and then there's those nasty little inconviences: bypass surgeries. It's not really a matter of "whether" you'll stop eating meat...it's only a matter of "when." Shouldn't take too long with spareribs. Bon Appetite!
@thedimon - I think you are wrong about the odds of an animal surviving in the wild. One pack of wolves or lions will hunt/kill an ill or old deer/antelope. This will kill will last many days, sometimes weeks before the next meal. Man as "predator" in comparison - will kill at least one healthy "chicken" a day for his meals. At least in the wild animals stand a chance . Escaping the slaughterhouse takes a "miracle". Slaughterhouses are "that bad" because they are avoidable and unnecessary. And I wonder if you realize that many, many things meant to go "right" there go horribly "wrong"?
Yes, I realize all the hidden animal parts that are ingredients in other things - All of which are replaceable, if one just educates themselves on what to avoid. Rest assured I have. Millions of others have and will continue to do so and will live quite healthy doing so. So regardless of what you say - Humans do not "need" animal products at all.
Finally, as Janet Weeks has suggested... You know NOTHING of where I live - What my background is or isn't in animal agriculture - How many acres my house is on - Or how tall the buildings are that surround my world. NOTHING. So please for your own credibility in this discussion don't "assume" anything. Thx.
@Heidij - Many different bibles say many different things - And since everything was written and interpreted by man, it's obvious he'd want to lean things "his way" - Isn't it? You will see here that all Christian writings http://bible.cc/genesis/1-29.htm referring to Genesis 1:29 say the similar thing:
"And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."
The most perfect world - The Garden - The one "gOd" intended was for man to live in harmony and peace with all that he made that was good. AND there is even another mandate which strictly forbids killing - It does not mention excluding other men (for wars) or nonhumans (for food). Only man puts in these disclaimers to suit his own needs.
And the truth is - that no one will betray their faith if they refuse to kill or eat animals.
Finally - are you serious about plant's "suffering" without a central nervous system? Tell you what cut your hedges and cut your cat's tail off... If you have any question at to which being feels pain - re-evaluate your notions of what "pain" is.
And please... Quit picking on the innocent animals who do you no harm and spare the children's hearts from becoming as callous as your own.
Hello TheCapitalist... You do realize humans are animals too? And we are made out of "meat" as well? So your point about "YUM!!!!!!!!" is what?
Fine,you tree-huggers want to eat bean sprouts,go ahead.But,leave me to eat my beef,pork,chicken,turkey,duck,lamb,and venison in peace!I stay out of your business,you stay out of mine.
BeaElliot.
Just like you mentioned - in the wild wolves and other predator hunt down sick and old animals. Almost none of these animals die their natural deaths.. Those who avoid predators will most likely die from hunger, or could end up being left behind by the herd. Most that get weak from hunger or disease will ultimately be eaten by others animals.
Don't compare deer to chicken. It will take weeks for a man to eat a dear, just like it takes a long time for wolves to go hungry and start hunting again. You can't feed a pack of wolves with one chicken, just like you can feed ten men with that same bird.
Things do go wrong in slaughterhouses, but at the same time when an animal is attacked by large predator its being ripped apart alive as well, which doesn't feel any better than being sliced apart by a knife of a butcher.
Your replaceable foods are made in the labs and many vegans buy fake meats and other products, which require advanced technology to produce. I don't see how that is healthier than just having a bloody steak.
As for required foods - look at the food pyramid. Its suggested for you to eat animal and milk products in there. You can replace it with soy-based products, but scientists are still at odds whether a plant-based protein is truly a good substitute to animal-based protein.
Also, someone pointed out about humans having incisors. We are not carnivorous, so don't compare human teeth to those of lions. We are omnivorous, just like pigs and bears, and our teeth resemble the same structure. A human jaw is not designed to take a slice out of a buffalo, but it would do a great job at crashing rodents and smaller animals, as well as insects. Also, human digestive tract is perfectly suited for consuming raw meat - you just need to do it from young age, when your body gets used to bacteria and parasites present in raw meats. You can eat raw meats even today - I ate raw fish last week during my trip to a sushi bar. ;)
Vegans should not turn a blind eye to vegetable cruelty.... wake up and smell the radishes.
http://www.vegetablecruelty.com/
This is a very serious matter, deserving your attention before you mash that next potato. It's time to start protesting greenhouses. Let's reveal the vegans for what they are, a carrot murdering mob.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmK0bZl4ILM
And you know it's for real when there's a music video on YouTube.
God will never mind any of us showing as much compassion toward others as possible. In fact, what better way to honor God?
We have natural, inborne empathy for other living beings, including animals. We are all of the same source. We all feel pain and want to live. Humans and nonhumans enjoy the company of others. We all bleed, we suffer, we want to live, we know happiness and sadness.
Through many mechanisms, including unconvincing and convoluted rationaliations, we - humans - blunt our natural compassion in order to do violence.
One justification for killing animals - which I usually find to be insincere - is the "plants feel pain" defense. Firstly, it is well-documented that a vegan diet kills fewer plants than a meat- and dairy-centered diet does. So anyone who is truly concerned about plants' alleged pain should seriously look at transitioning to a plant-based diet.
But the people who put forward this excuse for eating animals, by and large, know that there is no comparison between the pig in the scalding tank, wildly writhing in pain until he drowns, and the potatoes being pulled from the field. They would not swerve to hit the dog in order to spare the shrub. They don't regret the pain of the grass as they walk over it and mow it.
Deep down, we want to be moral. We don't want to be mean. But we also are very defensive of our lifestyles. Most of us started eating meat before we can even remember doing so - our parents fed it to us. We become emotionally attached not so much to meat per se - for example, most Americans shun chicken feet and are appalled by dog meat - but to the meals we grew up with and are used to. We shut out dark images of slaughterhouses, of hellish transport in which animals frequently die, of mother cows on dairies crying out for their calves who are taken from them. When the unnecessary violence and meanness involved in eating animal products is brought up, our natural first reaction is to defend our lifestyles and convince others and ourselves that our actions are justified and that we're decent, moral people.
Sometimes we try to convince ourselves that we need to eat meat, but the presence of so many healthy vegans, including top athletes, refutes that claim. We may search for a passage in the Bible that condones eating meat, but the central themes of mercy and humility, the basic tenets of the golden rule and "thou shalt not kill," the notion of greed and gluttony as deadly sins, and the ideal vegan diet laid out in Genesis suggest that we should refrain from harming animals simply because we like the taste of their flesh or their reproductive secretions - milk and eggs. Often, meat-eaters lash out at those who point out the suffering and unncessary violence and killing involved in eating animal products - but this helps no one.
I ate meat for over forty years. I had all those reactions when others first questioned my meat-eating. I loved meat, I defended it, and I discredited vegetarians. But ultimately, I saw that my arguments did not hold up, that I was not being honest with myself. I learned that I do not need to eat animals to have a healthy, diverse, satisfying diet. I admitted that I was inflicting avoidable harm on others - in fact, even worse, I was paying someone to inflict that harm on my behalf, so I would be spared the the terrible sights and sounds - and I could stop doing that. And when I did, I discovered a new connection with nature and with God. I could look animals in the eye with complete honesty. I did not have to push horrible images of death and sufering out of my mind in order to enjoy my meals.
There is a profusion of delicious vegam meat and dairy alternatives today, and the quality, variety, and availablilty of those products icontinually increases. Tofurky and Field Roast sausages are rich, hearty, and filling. Veggie bacon tastes and feels like animal-derived bacon but without the cholesterol and cruelty. So Delicious coconut milk ice cream is wonderfully creamy and smooth; most non-vegans who try it, love it. There are many varieties of nondairy milk, including soymilk, almond milk, and coconut milk; you probably won't know the difference when you pour them over your cereal, and they work great in baking. There are hundreds of excellent vegan cookbooks and thousands of amazing vegan recipes, often rated and reviewed, online.
Transitioning to a peaceful plant-based diet can be a time of rewarding, fulfilling discovery. Try new products, new cuisnes, new cooking styles, and new spices. You'll be glad to know that most comfort foods, such as macaroni and cheese, meatloaf, chili, apple pie, chocolate chip cookies, even fried chicken - can be prepared in delicious ways without any animal ingredients. In doing this, you can save animals throughout your life, and probably improve your health and have a greener diet at the same time. And with a little bit of planning, not only will this more peaceful diet not cost you a penny, but you may save money over the long run; studies show that vegetarians and vegans have lower rates of heart disease, obesity, diabetes, and certain cancers than the average American. In some clinical studies and cases, low-fat vegan diets have reversed diabetes and advanced heart diseases, and other debilitating conditions.
I hope that people will consider taking steps away from a meat- and dairy-centered diet. The advantages are amazing, and perhaps the most gratifying aspect is that your eating habits become in sync with your deepest morals; you will be taking steps toward the paradise of Eden, toward an ideal in which we "neither hurt nor destroy in all [the Lord's] holy mountain."
The animals are treated real well before they are sent off to an Auschwitz death camp. What we are teaching our kids is how to bond and butcher. That is the lesson. This is not a farm. I grew up on a farm. This is a petting zoo like it or not, where the residents of Glenview or anywhere else can come to pet and domesticate these animals.
Glenview you should not have to pay taxes for the torturing of domesticated animals. Wagner Farm is getting away with the murder and should not be operating the farm with tax payer’s money. If Wagner Farm wants to operate a farm and send the animals off to slaughter, so be it. Just don't take tax payer's money. You are a petting zoo. So much in fact those animals know their names and come to be petted when called. Does this matter in the minds and hearts of our citizens who pay taxes? It does for me.
A comment was made in the article that this wasn't supposed to be a cutesy zoo. That is what it is! It is cutesy and the animals are domesticated. There is a difference. I look forward to the day that we can call ourselves "Humane People." Until we can see what we are doing to animals in order to control and dominate them to fit our every need and whim, our society as we know it has a very long way to go in knowing what Humane is.
Hannah
No doubt all of you who have tried to prove that meat and dairy are a necessisty, and healthier than a plant-based diet will argue with the following too:
The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea of `real food for real people,' you'd better live real close to a real good hospital.
--Neal D. Barnard, M.D.
When we kill the animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings.
--William C. Roberts, M.D., editor of The American Journal of Cardiology
If you have proof to refute this, then please do inform us 'tree-hugging' vegans. I presume your childishness will stoop to thinking we all wear kaftans, burn incense and wear 'Jesus' sandals too.
This is an open forum, so kindly do not attempt to have dominion over vegetarians, vegans and animal rights activists, the same as you so obviously relish and enjoy having over innocent animals, who are sentient beings.
If you choose to live a life that is not compassionate - or one where you use selective compassion depending on the race, caste, gender, nation, species, sexuality, then of course that's your perogative. However, as adults, you are responsible for the children of the future. You are encouraging them to eat an unhealthy diet. Also, you are teaching them morals such as that money and power are more important than kindness and compassion.
If you have men who will exclude any of god's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men.
--St. Francis of Assisi
Hear my prayer, Lord :
Please forgive the insensitivity and addictions of humanity. Lead them to the knowledge of nutrition without the need to slaughter precious sentient beings ♥....And if I might selfishly ask, "Please let me stop crying so I... can continue to help other innocent animals who are needlessly suffering.... My pain is so great, but I know theirs is so much worse." ♥ ~ Krista (Amen)
@ Rachel & Aunt Bea: You gonna eat that gristle??
MORE SPARE RIBS, PLEASE!!!!!
Love Ya,
The Capitalist
Once again, The Capitalist's comments have been reported for the following reasons: Rude/crude language, excessively provocative, hateful, and mean. Do not belong on intelligent forum. Do not contribute to reasonable debate.
The Capitalist needs to grow up. If s/he has nothing intelligent to contribute, s/he should go back to school.
I would like to thank all the AMAZING animal-rights advocates, most of whom I have never met, for their intelligent comments, commitment to compassion, and powerful voices. We are proof that our collective EYE on Wagner Farm--Glenview, Illinois, Timbuktu, or wherever animal cruelty and suffering exist--has grown larger and spread across the United States and to other continents. We will continue to lift our voices and be heard. Our fire and passion are reignited with every injustice that occurs. We will NOT go away. We will NOT be ignored, belittled, or silenced. Until justice and compassion prevail. For the Animals!! With Love. ♥♥♥
PS Congratulations to first daughter, Chelsea Clinton, on her nuptials and her "Very Vegan Wedding!" :)
http://www.ecorazzi.com/2010/07/27/chelsea-clintons-very-vegan-wedding/
May their final truth be told. The 4-H children have a right to know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ma-Oi6cYJw
“It is my view that the vegetarian manner of living by its purely physical effect on the human temperament would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind.”—Albert Einstein
"I am in favor of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a whole human being."- Abraham Lincoln
"If one person is unkind to an animal it is considered to be cruelty, but where a lot of people are unkind to animals, especially in the name of commerce, the cruelty is condoned and, once large sums of money are at stake, will be defended to the last by otherwise intelligent people." --- Leo Tolstoy
"Auschwitz begins whenever someone looks at a slaughterhouse and thinks 'they're only animals'"
-Theodor Adorno
There's something unhinged about you people. You're mooning over a tiny handful of animals? Most of you don't even seem to be anywhere near Glenview, why did you become so sentimental and attached to these when every supermarket is filled with the remains of many times more animals? Yet you're obviously emotionally invested in these specific animals, since you think that spending days insulting the 4-H parents and kids and calling them Hitler and murderer and sticking your noses into their affairs from far away somehow means that you "deserve to know" what happened to the animals. What happened to them? Dinner happened to them, that's what happened to them! I hope they will be prepared well, and turn out delicious.
The thing I see is that because you're so fanatic and rude about it, you're alienating a lot of people who are serious and thoughtful about food and could listen to your arguments. You assume that only you know anything and care about anything. You call the 4-H kids ignorant and emotionally abused. Could anything be more condescending when referring to young people who have joined a club to work hard and do something they think matters. Shame on you for assuming the worst of them and spreading your lies about the animals being mistreated and abused.
I think you've shown your true colors to the people of Glenview in this comment section. You don't care about food as an issue for people; you don't even really care about the animals (or else somebody would have come out to bid on them at the fair). You care about how big a noise you can make lording it over others about how sensitive you are. You're egotists masquerading as animal rights activists. You've done your cause a lot of damage here by showing what you really are; and the 4-H kids have done theirs a lot of good by just going on with their business and having a great fair this year.
"The 4-H kids know what is going to happen to their animals, and they are fine with that. The ...animal rights people should get over it. These animals are not meant to be pets."
Year after year, at the sanctuary we see kids beaming with happiness when they hug and pet the rescued farm animals; it's a reflection of their natural empathy for them. On the other hand, when I've shown videos of slaughterhouse scenes to kids, with their parents' explicit permission, nearly every one expresses despair and sadness - which is the appropriate response to seeing brutality and tehe suffering of innocents.
I doubt that the 4-H kids would be stoic if they saw their beloved animals being killed and chopped into bits. But if for some reason they have been taught to override their natural compassion in order to participate in completely unnecessary violence, what a horrible thing to do to kids. I don't believe we can be fully human and " be fine" with inflicting severe avoidable harm to others - that goes against the very core of our better natures.
I hope to God I never "get over" the mass-slaughter of innocent animals.
Making up self-serving purposes for animals in order to rationalize violence inflicted on them is cowardly. In affluent countries, the real reasons we harm and kill animals is because we can. It is strictly a choice; it is not a divine command, or necessary for health.
Sentient beings with feelings, the will to live, and the capacity to suffer are not "meant" to be mere tools whom we destroy for pleasure or profit, or out of habit. But the more compelling question is "What are we meant to be?" Ruthless, greedy dominators for whom a momentary taste sensation justifies the taking of lives. or compassion-filled people who choose peace, humility, and respect for life as widely as possible? Which path will we choose?
On the contrary, MortonArthurEaton, from what I've heard, we've succeeded magnificently in opening eyes in your small "village" and around the world. All eyes are on Wagner Farm.
As for your comment that twists the truth:
"Shame on you for assuming the worst of [the children] and spreading your lies about the animals being mistreated and abused. "
We assume the worst of the parents NOT the innocent children. You have made them pawns in your game. The children are being told half truths and lies. Nancy Friday wrote:
"The 4-H kids know what is going to happen to their animals, and they are fine with that."
Like heck the kids are "fine with that," whatever she means by "that." The kids may be "fine" with the big fat check they receive off the sale of their animal. They go to the fair, show their animal, receive blue ribbons and cash, and mommy buys them a Sno-Cone or Corn Dog to celebrate. Then they scurry home, happy and distracted, with their fistful of dollars. They have no clue or are taught not to care what misery and terror are in store for their animal that they did indeed raise like a "pet," according to Catherine Lambrecht, in her eye-opening article, "4-H Livestock projects at the Lake County Fair." Or they are advised not to think too much about it, and definitely not to cry, at least not in public.
If this were not true, then one of you would have answered my questions, which must now be cast in the past tense. No one ever did. Will you answer these two crucial questions, MortonArthurEaton?
1. Were the 4-H children transported with their animals to the slaughterhouse where they could participate in the final step in the process of learning "where their food comes from"? If not, why not?
2. Were the 4-H children allowed to choose whether their animal would live or die? Billy, Mary: Would you rather have $300 for your lamb and let the lamb live, or would you rather have $300 for your lamb and have the lamb slaughtered? If not, why not?
Moon Arthur Eaton, the rudest people on this site have been the Capitalist, Heidi and yourself. The animal advocates are not 'mooning over a small group of animals.' These baby animals were representative of millions being killed every day. You make all sorts of ridiculous allegations and lies that we are "insulting the 4-H parents and kids and calling them Hitler and murderer'. One need only go through the comments to see that accusation is flagrantly untrue.
The children have loved the animals, cared for them and everyone has acknowledged that. This is what makes this circumstance particularly sad; where the animals are going now, they most definitely will be mistreated and abused. They are going to be slaughtered.
If you pick up 'egotism' in my comment, what I pick up in yours and Heidi's is defensiveness. You feel your attitudes are under attack which they are,, even from people who could care less about animals. It takes 674 gallons of water to produce a hamburger. With our resources being depleted the way they are and the world population growing the way it is, meat-eating is becoming a less and less viable way of feeding people on earth.
@ Janet: Crude comments?? Please, you need to relax. How about some spare ribs?
Yes, crude AND rude. Thankfully, Triblocal had the good sense to delete the worst of your distasteful and gutter-mouthed remarks, which serve no good purpose here. (Where is a bar of soap?) And, I have reported you again, as follows:
This poster continually abuses the intent and purpose of the comments section, which is meaningful dialogue, discussion, and debate. Please remove him or advise him to keep his comments civil.
Yes, I think I will report TheCapitalist too - The remarks contribute nothing to the discussion and are only meant to inflame.
But still... I too am amazed that these two questions which have been asked at least 4 times have not been answered... They seem quite relevant and are presented in a respectful way. Hummm...
1. Were the 4-H children transported with their animals to the slaughterhouse where they could participate in the final step in the process of learning "where their food comes from"? If not, why not?
2. Were the 4-H children allowed to choose whether their animal would live or die? Billy, Mary: Would you rather have $300 for your lamb and let the lamb live, or would you rather have $300 for your lamb and have the lamb slaughtered? If not, why not?
Thank you, Bea! I'm so glad you re-posted these questions so they don't get buried. Although, I think these two questions are unanswerable, and they know it. Who wants to bet we never have a reply?
That's where we got 'em, where our truth bites the hardest, that's where we got 'em, cause they know they can't lie.
Or tell the truth. Here are the answers they cannot or will not tell:
1. Of course we did not transport our 4-H kids with their animals to the slaughterhouse. We must shield their tender eyes from the "ultimate" truth. They can't know THAT part of where their food comes from. They can only know the half-truth we want them to know.
2. Of course we did not give them a choice whether their animal would live or die because we know what they would choose. All things being equal--in terms of payout--the kids would choose life over death every single time.
I find it very disturbing that parents would teach their children that it is alright to murder a beloved animal as long as they receive money for the betrayal.
On 7/30/10 at 11:53 PM, MikeGebert wrote:
Knowing the program as I do, I believe if Isewell's story were accurate, the kid would at minimum be very close to being expelled from the program. Although pigs are, admittedly, large and heavy animals who need a certain amount of exertion to be handled, I simply do not believe for a moment that the incident, if it happened at all, happened the way it's being portrayed. That's not how the kids are, it's not how the program is. I can't speak as to the morals of animal activists, either local or far away.
Mike: Honestly, I have no motivation to make this story up. I have lived in Glenview most of my life and have enjoyed going to the Farm regularly with my family. It was chaotic with pigs squeeling and the kids chasing them and hitting them with these wooden sticks. There was another family there and the grandmother was shouting to them to stop hitting the pigs. It was horrible. It was violent. No question about it. I tried to block my daughter from seeing it but it was so "in your face" that it was impossible for her not to see. She is four years old and she said "why are you hitting the pigs?" They told her that they were training them. So, my daughter said to me "it is ok, mommy, they are hitting the pigs to train them." I had to take her away and talk to her about it and tell her it is never ok to hit an animal and hitting is not how you train an animal. I was shocked, upset and very disappointed as I have enjoyed the farm so much but now I just cannot go back. Whether or not this is permissible in the Program, this is truly the reality of what we saw. The kids just did not seem to know what they were doing at all. In terms of posts from those outside of Glenview, I have no issue with that regardless of what side of the fence they are on - should we not care about what is going on in other parts of the world?
To MASTER-SHAKE. You said, "I stay out of your business, you stay out of mine." To you, and to every other person who supports the breeding/raising/slaughter of animals for human consumption, HEAR THIS: We will NOT stay out of "your business." When ignorant minds guide hollow hearts to torture, mutilate, and murder God's beautiful creatures and desecrate His beautiful planet, that is NOT your busines; it is everyone's business. We who live cruelty-free lives will not stand by while any human or non-human suffers at the hardened hands of the merciless.
"Ignorant" is not meant as an insult--ignorant means uninformed, lacking in knowledge; a person with a compassionate soul but ignorant mind may eat meat, but once they discover the abuse and suffering to the animal, their merciful hearts guide them to acquire more knowledge, which leads them to stop supporting meat eating and production; the empty, hollow heart does not guide one to open his/her mind and allow the intake of knowledge, of enlightenment. 4-H activities involving children in the raising and subsequent sale and slaughter of their animals helps to develop in them a hollow heart, which they will need if they continue on a path of soulless living.
Moreover, some meateaters/farmers wrongly assume that we vegans/animal rights activists all grew up as city dwellers or suburbanites. I am a grandmother living on rural wooded acreage in West Central Florida; I am a Native American of Cherokee ( Tsalagi/Aniyvwiya) and Muscogee (Creek) descent.
My Cherokee father grew up in northeastern Alabama (Pisgah) on the small family farm where they supported themselves by growing vegetables and raising chickens, pigs, and cows for meat and milk. My Muscogee mother grew up living in a "chickee" in the Big Cypress Swamp in Florida--a "chickee" consists of a raised floor and poles that support a palm frond roof--no walls. Her widowed father provided for his eight children by trudging in the swamp at night, kids in tow, hunting/killing alligators, dragging them out of the water, then hauling them by wagon into Immokalee for sale
Aside from a family history involving the killing, sale, and eating of animals, I have lived in the farming/dairy communities of Benton and Carbondale, Illinois and Moose Lake, Minn. I have knowledge about farms, farmers, and farm animals. And aside from a family history of meat eating, I have acquired a wealth of knowledge regarding health issues--I have family members on both sides whose bodies, and subsequently the bodies of their offspring, have been riddled with disease--colon and pancreatic cancer, clogged arteries, obesity, diabetes, and hypertension.
I grew up good and caring people, but also people who were ignorant of the knowledge I have had to good fortune to acquire -- actually, the glimmer of insight began when my father's doctor advised my father to use vegetable shortening instead of lard and to not eat processed meat or beef. That was in the 50's. People back then did not know the dangers of meat/animal product consumption; and those that ate meat never participated in hunting for sport--they ate meat for survival, not knowing how plant products could give them all the nutrients they needed.
Most of us vegans grew up eating meat, and those of us in the South remember the fried pork chops and fried chicken, gravy and butter laden potatoes, collard greens cooked in bacon grease. Despite our family history, however, we have determined not to continue living it--we see animals slaughtered by the billions not out of necessity, but to satisfy humans' "lust" for flesh; and aside from the brutality and betrayal and murder of billions of animals, we see the reality of what eating dead flesh does to our own bodies.
We choose not to participate in the mass murder of billions of innocent animals; we choose not to participate in our own suicide; we choose not to participate in the destruction of our planet and our environment...and since the mass production of meat animals around the globe does contaminate and destroy our world, we DO choose to stand up and fight against it because it is OUR business, not just YOUR business. We will not "stay out" of it, and we will NOT go away.
Triblocal: did you do any fact-checking into the relationship of the Glenview animal-rights activists and Wagner Farm? I had heard that the person initiating most of this discussion at one time was the one who asked for taxpayer dollars to purchase the farm initially, and who was part making of the decisions on how it was initially run.
If that's the case, it strikes me that it's important to differentiate between an individual who doesn't like how something they initiated has changed, and someone who opposes something based on principle. If animal farming is so cruel, why create a program showcasing it, even in half-measures?
Yes, mrtrumbe, do please tell the truth. Will YOU please tell the truth and answer these questions?
1. Were the 4-H children transported with their animals to the slaughterhouse where they could participate in the final step in the process of learning "where their food comes from"? If not, why not?
2. Were the 4-H children allowed to choose whether their animal would live or die? Billy, Mary: Would you rather have $300 for your lamb and let the lamb live, or would you rather have $300 for your lamb and have the lamb slaughtered? If not, why not?
You see, mrtrumbe, by refusing to answer these questions you negate your own claim that we are the ones who refuse to discuss. By calling us names, you negate your own credibility. "Animal-rights extremists." Don't make me laugh! Tell me what is "extreme" about having compassion and seeking to end animal suffering? Honestly, mrtrumbe, don't let's be silly. Most reasonable people see right through grade-school name-calling.
We do NOT, I repeat NOT, want to shut down 4-H! How many times do we have to say it? 4-H has many wonderful valuable and enriching aspects. On this we may all agree! We celebrate the HUMANE treatment of animals. The ONLY thing we object to about this particular 4-H program is the needless killing of the childrens' animals when YOU are done with them. That is ALL. All the rest, you are making up.
So NOW will you answer my questions? If you do not, well then, I rest my case. YOU are the ones unwilling to have a back-and-forth discussion. YOU are the ones unwilling to listen or have an honest debate. You do not answer hard questions because you know you cannot.
1. Were the 4-H children transported with their animals to the slaughterhouse where they could participate in the final step in the process of learning "where their food comes from"? If not, why not?
2. Were the 4-H children allowed to choose whether their animal would live or die? Billy, Mary: Would you rather have $300 for your lamb and let the lamb live, or would you rather have $300 for your lamb and have the lamb slaughtered? If not, why not?
I'm sorry, could you repeat the question?
I believe that if you truly desire to educate your children of where their meat comes from, then you should complete the process of animal to meal. Allow them to watch as their animals are loaded onto the transport trucks. Travel with them to the slaughterhouse. (You might have to take an extra hour during this part, as the truck drivers typically take a break to eat dinner while the distressed animals remain in the urine stenched confines...possibly over 100 degrees in the hot sun....no water for them, though.) Continue on to the slaughterhouse. If your animal is still alive, you will be able to watch his/her distress as he/she continues down the assembly line...hearing others in anguish. (It gets quite loud; I would suggest wearing ear plugs, but that would take away from the childrens' experience.) Now, don't back out...the animals can't !! Maybe this is the parents' first time at a slaughterhouse, too? What a great field trip....excitement in watching as their well-cared for animals have their throats ripped open and are drained of their life's blood. You can actually watch as the life goes out of their eyes <3
Janet Weeks
Kristalyn
I can't believe you people are so damn clueless.
You don't show children certain aspects of life till their are ready. How about this deal to you - I show my children the slaughterhouse after you show your children in practice how kids are being made. Show your 10 year old child how that child was created in practice!
I bet you won't be able to do it!
So, drop your retarded question! The farm serves a role of showing some parts of meat production processes, but doesn't show all of them, just like sex ed classes in school.
You all need to grow up and realize that for you to live some organisms have to die on daily basis. That's the reality of life.
"Children — and adults — in communities like Glenview often aren’t aware of the work involved getting food to supermarket shelves and to their plates, he said. 4H teaches that, he said."
This statement in the above ^ article. This is the topic, mrteumbe : getting food to supermarket shelves and to their plates
OK, here's the question for you: If you were soooooo concerned about what would happen to these animals, why didn't you come to the auction and buy them? It was a public auction and anyone could buy these animals and do whatever they wanted with them. Where were you? Instead of jumping up and down asking what happened, why didn't you ENSURE that you got the outcome you wanted.
And as to taking a "field trip" to a "slaughterhouse" as you insist on calling it, although the correct term is a processing plant, it is illegal to do so. Are you saying that the 4H club should teach their children to engage in illegal activity? Hmmmm? I wonder.
Oh and by the way, yes, some of the children did escort their animals on to the truck. Was it easy? Hell, no! But, these kids, unlike many, are mature, thoughtful kids who wanted to give their animals the best until the end. Read the stats on what type of citizens many 4H kids grow up to be; civil leaders, better GPA than many, advocates for animals and farming, go ahead check it out. These kids will grow up to be some of the leaders in the next generation and I, for one, couldn't be happier that they will. God bless 'em!
A classic tactic when someone is losing a debate is to declare the other person's questions "irrelevant." My questions are GERMANE to this discussion. You state this program is designed to teach the 4-H kids "where their food comes from" and yet you will not teach them the whole truth. When you tell them half truths, you are telling them lies. They will grow up and learn the truth. Then they will feel betrayed by their parents who lied to them. A slaughterhouse is a "processing plant" is a slaughterhouse. Words, just words. You can't change something hideous and ugly but a sugar-coated euphemism.
So, don't bother to answer the questions, since we already know the answers:
1. Of course we did not transport our 4-H kids with their animals to the slaughterhouse. We must shield their tender eyes from the "ultimate" truth. They can't know THAT part of where their food comes from. They can only know the half-truth we want them to know.
2. Of course we did not give them a choice whether their animal would live or die because we know what they would choose. All things being equal--in terms of payout--the kids would choose life over death every single time.
And, I will never, EVER forget the sad-eyed and conflicted 10-year-old little boy who uttered these words:
"I wouldn't want to EAT my lamb. I wouldn't want to read the menu and see, "These lambs are from Wagner Farm, and this one is owned by [child states his name].' I would NOT want to eat my lamb. I mean, I'll eat lamb, but I do not want to eat MY lamb. [pause] Or a lamb that I knew."
Now that, my dear friends is GERMANE to this discussion. Did you give the kids a choice or the animals a chance?
1. Of course we did not transport our 4-H kids with their animals to the slaughterhouse. We must shield their tender eyes from the "ultimate" truth. They can't know THAT part of where their food comes from. They can only know the half-truth we want them to know.
The kids know what happens to the animals. They just don't have to see it, at least not while they are young. When they grow up they can see the whole process themselves.
I don't see where you are coming from with your "half-truths". Nobody is hiding the fact that those animals will die.
mrtrumbe, you are stating a lot of prejudice opinions that are not based on facts. I can assure you that there are more than a handful of compassionate people reading these comments.
"And, I will never, EVER forget the sad-eyed and conflicted 10-year-old little boy who uttered these words:"
The so-called sad-eyed and conflicted 10-year-old little boy (he bristles at the "little," by the way) has been laughing all weekend at how you insist on portraying him as traumatized and will, at the slightest mention of "the protesters," do an imitation of the pathetic tortured creature that you claim him to be. (For some reason it involves a Cockney accent; I think because he recently watched Oliver Twist.) In any case, he thinks you're silly and wants you to know that HE chose to do 4-H knowing where the animals go (after all, he helped load them last night) and is proud of his three years' involvement.
mrtrumbe :The latest surveys of what group ? Who took this survey and where was it taken ? What questions were asked during the surveys ?
Egad, we're doomed! The kid is fully indoctrinated after ONLY three years.
thedimon: Please do not refer to Kristalyn's question as "retarded". If you had a child who was indeed mentally impaired, you would not through this word around so carelessly. Thank you.
The moral majority is neither. Out numbers are growing by leaps and bounds, mrtrumbe. You cite outdated numbers. They just haven't counted us all yet. :)
Janet and Kristalyn, now you are avoiding the question: IF YOU REALLY CARED SO MUCH ABOUT THESE PARTICULAR ANIMALS AS YOU CLAIM YOU DID, WHERE WERE YOU ON SATURDAY? Before you go on and give your rebuttle, which I know will be coming, please answer that question. You can spew your ignorant comments and use Wagner Farm 4H’s program as a platform to talk about your vegan beliefs, but it is so apparent that you don’t really care about these animals, or you would have been there. So stop using this program for your own itinerary and find more appropriate and useful ways to channel your anger. You don’t even know what these children do as a part of this program. Did you know that they spend many hours and days becoming educated on the entire process from birth to market? Did you even know that yes, some even viewed pig carcasses as a part of this education in the ’08-’09 program? No, I’m guessing you didn’t know that, because all you are doing is making ignorant assumptions without knowing the “whole truth” about the 4H program and what is truly involved. You really should stop making assumptions of what the kids know/don’t know. You know nothing about them. I find it truly appalling that you have the nerve to call these kids “murderers.” That is the epitome of being irrational and ignorant.
These animals were raised with love and the best care. They were born “market” animals. If the 4H kids didn’t have them at Wagner to raise, they would have no doubt been raised in a much less “favorable” atmosphere and met the same fate. So why don’t you picket the processing plants if that is where your anger lies. You can keep up your pretense that the issue lies with the 4H program being run on tax-payer land-- it is so obvious that you are just using that to raise a ruckus and spread your extremist views (and yes, you are in the minority.)
I will answer your question, mrtrumbe, even if you refuse to answer mine.
Question:
"What gives you the right to force other people to change their lifestyle based on your beliefs?"
Answer:
I have NO right to force others to change their lifestyle based on my beliefs, and I do not presume to try. I cannot "force" you to do anything. I DO have the right to try to educate and enlighten anyone I choose.
I live in California, Mugs, and, due to the economy and my own very limited financial resources, I was unable to attend your fair and bid on theses animals. If I were a millionaire, you bet I’d have been there and rescued those animals in a heartbeat. Besides, you were offered FAIR MARKET VALUE or reasonably higher for the animals by the Rescue Fund. Why put the animals, not to mention the children, through all that terror and stress of an auction and transport, when they could have been simply and peaceably transferred to a sanctuary? You and your kids would have gotten your monetary reward and peace of mind knowing the animals would not be killed. YOU DID NOT EVEN GIVE THEM A CHOICE or a CHANCE.
And, the other problem in your thinking, Mugs, is this:
“Did you know that they spend many hours and days becoming educated on the entire process from birth to market?”
Shouldn’t this read:
“Did you know that they spend many hours and days becoming educated on the entire process from birth to FAIR to some nebulous concept of sanitized “death,” or rather “processing”?”
Well, why didn't you have one of your cronies go to the fair? I am well aware of at least 3 people here in Glenview that sure seemed like they wanted to "help" these animals. Why didn't you do that if you really, truly cared so much?
And by the way, these kids are intelligent enough to know that birth to market is the same as death. Your comment is such an example of how you read only what you want to read. Didn't you see that part of my letter where I said that part of their education was seeing pig carcasses? How much more graphic can you get? What on earth is your purpose here?
Then why wasn't the Rescue Fund at the auction? Maybe because this isn't about the animals, it's about egos?
Mugsy and Mike:
You are both guilty of selective reading. You skipped over this part of my response:
"Why put the animals, not to mention the children, through all that terror and stress of an auction and transport, when they could have been simply and peaceably transferred to a sanctuary?"
The Wagner Farm Rescue Fund is not loaded with cash either, or trucks for transport. They offered fair market value. They would have picked up the animals from the farm and taken them to sanctuary. It was a problem of logistics and limited financial resources. The goal was to save the animals from needless suffering, including transport back and forth to an auction.
And, showing children a photo of a pig carcass hardly shows the reality of the killing process at a slaughterhou... I mean "processing plant."
We are not trying to turn children against their parents. We do not wish to make them cry. The offer was made to the adults in your 4-H club. Would you rather have had us at the auction to ask your children if they would like some cash to spare the life of their well-cared for animals ? We would have assured them that they would be able to visit their animals in the sanctuary for many years to come. I would not want to see innocent children in that tug-of-war or tug at their heartstrings.
Enough sparring for me, boys. I'm done here. But, I will never be done speaking out for animals until their suffering at the hand of man is finished. "Let us realize the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice.” – Martin Luther King Jr.
Peace.
Again, you don't even understand what would end up happening to these market animals. You have a picture of rainbows and unicorns....with the swines living out their days happily at your rescue farm. Believe me, that is not how it would have been. Again, you know nothing about market animals. Why don't you actually do a little research to read up on market animals? They are not the same as the potbelly pig at the petting zoo.
And Janet, you can make any excuse that you want about why you weren't there, logistics/finances, etc., but I don't buy it. You just don't follow through with all of the diatribe you spew out.
As one of the sane posters stated earlier, it really is pointless arguing with people like you. You are so irrational and “out there.” It really is sad the way you go about spreading your views. And it sure is interesting how you couldn’t respond to many of my other comments in my original posting….is it because you had no way to refute them??? Hmmmmm, interesting.
By the way, Janet, I am not a "boy"--I am a 42 year old woman.
The issue with these animals versus others is that these are on Park District property and so our tax dollars are paying for it. Tax payer dollars should not go toward the slaughter of these animals. This is not a business operation. It is a PARK DISTRICT.
Animal rights activists are "extreme"?? I'll tell you what's extreme: the unnecessary breeding, enslavement and murder of innocent animals when there are easily accessible alternatives readily available. Is it okay to cause a sentient being harm when it's 100% avoidable? No, it is not okay, and in my opinion, *that's* extreme, as well as cruel and completely selfish--especially when one considers the impact of meat eating and how it severely aggravates global starvation; hardly a "personal choice" when one takes the time to view the situation through a broader, more realistic, *fact based* scope.
What is "extreme" here is when people put themselves in a category that touts itself as superior to non-human animals. Surely a cow cannot wrap its mind around the same sorts of complexities that the human mind is capable of contemplating, but they certainly know kindness from cruelty and the difference between pleasure and pain.
I am astounded at the amount of arrogance and ignorance amongst the carnists posting here. Of course organisms die on a daily basis- wtf? We are talking about AVOIDABLE HARM here!! "You people" seem to have a hard time wrapping your minds around such a simple and ethical concept! Unreal!
Sincerely,
Laura Foster
Yes, mrtrumbe, we realize that tax dollars go toward subsidies on meat production. We think this is wrong and fight against it as well. This particular "fight" is only a small drop in our activist buckets, so to speak.
We are involved in a movement that is chock FULL of good reasons, did you see the report from the UN stating that "A substantial reduction of impacts would only be possible with a substantial worldwide diet change, away from animal products."? Better have a read:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/02/un-report-meat-free-diet
There was a time when a small group of people fought against slavery against the odds-- we all know how that turned out.
More reasons to go vegan:
Heath:
http://www.nursingdegree.net/blog/19/57-health-benefits-of-going-vegan/
"Eating a healthy vegan diet has shown to prevent a number of diseases...."
"Cardiovascular disease. Eating nuts and whole grains, while eliminating dairy products and meat, will improve your cardiovascular health. A British study indicates that a vegan diet reduces the risk for heart disease and Type 2 diabetes. Vegan diets go far in preventing heart attack and stroke."
"Cholesterol. Eliminating any food that comes from an animal and you will eliminate all dietary cholesterol from your diet. Your heart will thank you for that."
"Prostate cancer. A major study showed that men in the early stages of prostate cancer who switched to a vegan diet either stopped the progress of the cancer or may have even reversed the illness."
"Colon cancer. Eating a diet consisting of whole grains, along with fresh fruits and vegetables, can greatly reduce your chances of colon cancer."
"Breast cancer. Countries where women eat very little meat and animal products have a much lower rate of breast cancer than do the women in countries that consume more animal products."
The list goes on.
More reasons to go vegan:
Environmental:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock's_Long_Shadow
"The findings of this report suggest that it should be a major policy focus when dealing with problems of land degradation, climate change and air pollution, water shortage and water pollution, and loss of biodiversity."
This is not from the mouths of "extreme", hyperbolic, animal right's activists. This is reality. Take it or leave it. You seem to prefer the latter, mrtrumbe. I might add that you too are an "animal" and it is simply your warped perceptions, imposed upon you by societal norms, indoctrination, and tradition, that lead you to believe that you are superior to non-human animals.
So, just to be clear here, would you say that it's wrong to inflict avoidable harm?
I AM A GLENVIEW TAX PAYER!! I LOVE WAGNER FARM!
Equal rights? What the heck are ya talking about mrtrumbe? Nobody said anything about "equal rights". Animals exist for their own reasons, whether or not *you* or the rest of the world are able to perceive this is another issue altogether.
I'd have to live under a rock not to know that I am in the minority here, Mrtrumbe, and I was once a part of the same speciesist mindset that prevails in the world to this day, but I learned the truth about it and changed as a result.
Is it so hard to believe that non-human animals would feel the same sort of terror that a human would feel being sent to the killing floor of a slaughterhouse? Why?
Is it wrong to inflict avoidable harm? Anyone? Anyone??
More reasons to go vegan:
World hunger and starvation:
http://negotiationisover.com/2010/03/10/animal-agriculture-and-world-hunger/
"Meat-eating societies are the main cause of world hunger because they feed a disproportionate percentage of the world’s crops to the more than 50 billion land animals raised for food annually, and tens of billions of marine animals (yes, we have fish farms nowadays)—instead of 6.5 billion people on the planet! Do the math. You don’t have to be Einstein to figure out this equation. Every 2-3 seconds some human (most likely a child) starves to death, while pigs and cows continually get fat."
OK, I simply must jump in here for a moment. Kudos to Laura for presenting a plethora of fact-based and well-researched "reasons for not killing these animals?" Which, mrtrumbe, is exactly what YOU asked for. If anyone is guilty of If veering "severely off topic," it is you. You asked for articulation--you got it. Then, you say Laura is the one off topic? Go back and read your own post.
Furthermore, I would remind you that by your definition, Jesus Christ was an "extremist" and look what humanity did to Him. "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." And, from a handful of "extremist" followers, Christianity was born. Could it be that the "extremists" were wrong? Or were they right, mrtrumbe?
'Participants don’t always know about the rescue fund, and that they could arrange for their animals to be sent to a sanctuary instead of the slaughterhouse'.
Was this addressed? Were participants in fact made aware of the rescue fund prior to sunday? If so, how many of them arranged for their animals to be sent to a sanctuary instead of to the slaughterhouse?
I live in the Uk, so it was not possible for me to attend in person and find out myself.
Oh, really? Legal action? Well, isn't that a splendid turn of events. :) Thanks for letting me know. Now I understand wherefore thou art so defensive.
Dragging children into the debate. What children where? Who's is dragging children into this debate? You are the ones who have made pawns of the children--having them raise animals "as pets" only to take them away so you can eat them. What a wicked thing to do to a child's psyche and natural compassion, mrtrumbe. "Don't be a sissy, Billy. Quitcher cryin'. Animals are MEANT to be eaten--except your dog, that is." The children don't have a say in the matter of whether their animal lives or dies. If they cry, you tell them to turn off their tears. All things being equal in terms of monetary return, what do YOU think they would choose, life or death? I'd say if anything, we are UPHOLDING the children and attempting to shield them from psychological damage when they realize they've been lied to all these years.
Okay, YOU are the ones "dragging" children into this argument by signing them up for a program that ends with the killing of the animals that they tended to. I don't know what you're even talking about-- I've not brought up children to this point, and if the 4-H kids are reading this, then that's up to the parents who are allowing that. The only thing the animal rights advocates were trying to do was to buy the animals before they were auctioned off. I've not heard *anything* about taking "legal action" as you say.... am I missing something??
It really isn't rocket science to just do the math when it comes to animal agriculture and how it aggravates world hunger-- we feed perfectly good food to non-human animals that we breed into existence to fatten them up for human consumption, instead of just giving the food to starving people. It doesn't matter that the source is biased on that particular article because it's really just common sense.... but I will research a less biased source to settle that issue for you, kay? :)
Again, I fight against factory farms as well. I fight against puppy mills, and a plethora of other issues that concern me. I have a number of causes that I tend to, so your assumptions of me and others is incorrect and narrow. It's like saying, "why are you fighting for starving children when the environment is in peril?". I have time for both, thanks.
Propaganda?? Is the UN report propaganda from animal rights advocates?? Is the article from "nursing degree" from animal rights advocates? I don't think so. Here's what the American Dietetic Association has to say about vegan diets and cholesterol:
"Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than non-vegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease, lower blood cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer."
Is the ADA a group of vegan animal rights advocates too?
You asked for "good reasons" to go vegan. I provided many based on that request.
You don't want to answer my question about whether or not it's wrong to inflict avoidable harm, because you KNOW that the answer is YES.
The point here is that animal rights advocates tried to rescue the 4-H animals *before* they went to auction, and they were denied. I'm sure the 4-H children would have chosen to have their animals go to a sanctuary rather than the slaughterhouse, but they were not given that option now, were they?
I can't believe that a club like 4-H, focused as it is on farming, would actually send its champion livestock to slaughter! What will people have to discuss as they gather at summer BBQs munching down on ribs, burgers, and brats?
Just what do you think is the source of all that supermarket meat that you fawn over? Get real. Get out of your hermetically sealed townhouse and see how the real world operates. Learn these life lessons. Livestock slaughter isn't pretty but it is necessary. Necessary, that is, unless you are a full-time vegetarian.
Perhaps you should not be part of the 4-H scene.
A meat-loving cowboy called "Rocko" aged 53, had some medical tests carried out by Dr Oz (featured on his TV show).
His blood sugar was 172 (diabetic), his waist size was 49" and he weighed 265 lbs.
The most shocking thing though, was that he was found to have the heart of an 85 year old, due to all the plaque build up in his arteries.
He had the choice whether to carry on the way he was, consuming animal fats, or to die.
He told views that he wanted to see his grandchildren grow up,
He therefore took the advice to give up meat and dairy for 28 days, to lose weight and start the process of reversing his condition.
He had a mission, and was not just doing it for himself, but for everyone else around him.
You'll see the results for yourself on the YouTube video link below , or if you prefer, (and are interested) search on Youtube for 'Dr. Oz Turns Meat-Eating Cowboy Vegan'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKYPSPUQvr4
I posted some quotes the other day:
The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea of `real food for real people,' you'd better live real close to a real good hospital.
--Neal D. Barnard, M.D.
When we kill the animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings.
--William C. Roberts, M.D., editor of The American Journal of Cardiology
This is my final post - take care everyone and live long and well, and enjoy our children and grandchildren as long as you can. Cutting out meat and dairy for a couple of days a week will be of benefit to your health.
Hi- The Wagner Farm Rescue Fund threatened legal action to stop the sale of the animals, and actually hired a lawyer. They told the lawyer that the animals were owned by the park district when they were actually owned by the 4-H club. One of the members of the 4-H club happens to have a father who is a lawyer, and when he contacted the veggie lawyer to let him know that the animals were owned by a private entity, the 4-H club, and not the park district, the veggie lawyer realized that he had no legal grounds for stopping the sale of the animals.
Much of the plant material fed to livestock is not fit for human consumption, and there is no truth to the fact that if everybody quit eating meat, then we could eliminate starvation in this world. There is more than enough food to feed the starving people in this world. There is just major problems in distribution, thanks to the wars going on in places like the Congo.
Yes, a vegan diet is healthy, but so is a low fat diet, where the person eats small amounts of low fat dairy, fish and poultry. Red meat is far worse for you than chicken and seafood are. Salmon is one of the healthiest foods on the planet. Andrew Weil is really big on salmon. Here is a link to Michael Pollan's site, in which he explains why he is not a vegetarian. http://michaelpollan.com/resources/animal-welfare/#faqstart
The animals have already been sold. It is time for everyone to move on. Some people have been disrespectful on both sides of the fence. The kids knew exactly what was going to happen to those animals when they joined 4-H. Thanks, Nancy
NFriday - By the soy industry's own admission on their web site: "90% of soy is grown for livestock feed". Likewise we grow almost that amount of corn - to fatten animals as well. The truth is we are loosing all bio-diversity by focusing crops geared to feed animals.
And I will agree - (for the most part unless we're speaking of e-coli related issues) eating small amounts of meat will not kill YOU - but - "It’s true: You can eat a few animal foods now and then without raising risk for chronic disease. That’s not a reason to consume foods that are not required in the diet, have no unique health benefits, and can never fit into a lifestyle built on principles of compassion." ~Virginia Messina, MPH, RD
Finally, while you say the kids "knew *exactly* what was going to happen - Is a s-t-r-e-t-c-h. No child (and very few adults) can honestly comprehend completely the goings on inside a slaughterhouse. Do they know their animal that they lovingly cared for will be unimaginable fear? Do they know the animal will try in every way it can to run away? To save his or her life? After all, it is *their* life!
"No society that feeds its children on tales of successful violence can expect them not to believe that violence in the end is rewarded" Margaret Mead
"Anyone who says that life matters less to animals than it does to us has not held in his hands an animal fighting for its life. The whole of the being of the animal is thrown into that fight, without reserve." (Elizabeth Costello, in J. M. Coetzee's book The Lives of Animals)
And do you still stand by that belief that the children know *exactly* - Really?
mrtrumbe - Actually there are many "minorities" and people of color who "get" animal rights:
http://vimeo.com/4502441
And Jews? How about this from Eternal Treblinka by Isaac Bashevis Singer, Jewish Nobel laureate:
"We know now, as we have always known instinctively, that animals can suffer as much as human beings. Their emotions and their sensitivity are often stronger than those of a human being. Various philosophers and religious leaders tried to convince their disciples and followers that animals are nothing more than machines without a soul, without feelings. However, anyone who has ever lived with an animal - be it a dog, a bird or even a mouse - knows that this theory is a brazen lie, invented to justify cruelty."
And finally about "extremism":
As Tom Regan said “But I am an extremist when it comes to rape — I am against it all the time. I am an extremist when it comes to child abuse — I am against it all the time. I am an extremist when it comes to sexual discrimination, racial discrimination — I am against it all the time. I am an extremist when it comes to abuse to the elderly — I am against it all the time.”
And you may doubt that we will ever change "humanities mind" - But never doubt this: The more we evolve and become "civilized". The more we become aware, awake and engaged that there ARE alternatives to unnecessary bloodshed - This topic will only escalate and non-violent advocacy will only grow. Perhaps it will be in your great-grandchildren's time that they will look upon meat eaters as the deviants? But I personally have no doubt this time will come and am proud to be a visionary against "the mob".
It is indeed as Gretchen Wyler said, "Cruelty can't stand the spotlight." Somebody must have done a good job.
mtrumbe, you are so right. I think your last post sums it up and says it all. It's no use discussing this any further with these people. It only gives them an excuse to spew their nonsense.
mrtrumbe wrote: "I'm claiming that comparing the situation of animals to slaves and the holocaust is beyond the pale and sure to offend the very people you are comparing animals to. It is an extremist tactic and it shows a disgusting lack of respect for your fellow man. But don't take my word for it: go out into the world and try your rhetoric out on real-life blacks and jews. Go ahead, try it."
Isaac Bashevis Singer, a Jewish immigrant to the USA whose many friends were murdered during the Holocaust (and who also won a Nobel Prize in Literature) wrote his short story, The Slaughterer, and he described the anguish of an appointed slaughterer trying to reconcile his compassion for animals with his job of killing them. He felt that the ingestion of meat was a denial of all ideals and all religions: "How can we speak of right and justice if we take an innocent creature and shed its blood?" When asked if he had become a vegetarian for health reasons, he replied: "I did it for the health of the chickens."
"This hour in history needs a dedicated circle of transformed nonconformists. The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority." ~Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
How about comparing the enslavement of animals to the enslavement of women, mrtrumbe? How about trying out our "rhetoric" on real-life women? Long after slavery was abolished in most of the world, many societies still treat women like chattel: Their shackles are poor education, economic dependence, limited political power, limited access to fertility control, harsh social conventions and inequality in the eyes of law. Violence is a key instrument used to keep these shackles on.
I am a real-life woman who totally relates the enslavement of animals and the exploitation of their female reproductive systems and bodily secretions (milk and eggs—and when their bodies are depleted, to cheap hamburger and chicken noodle soup) to the reduction of women as chattel and property. In the US, women "extremists" fought to win the right to vote, and we succeeded only because we had a voice. Animals have no voice and so we who relate to their plight, and men who are enlightened enough to understand it too, will be their voice. "Let us realize the arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice.” – Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Poor animals. How jealously they guard their bodies; that which to us is merely an evening's meal, but to them is life itself." - Franz Kafka, a Jewish-Czech born writer wrote this after the Nazi's murdered his three sisters just because they were Jewish.
Oppressed groups feel great compassion for animals. Do your research, mrtrumbe, and will find that many intelligent people from oppressed groups believe it is wrong to kill animals for any reason.
Mrtrumbe, the only person slinging insults here, is you.
Dear Professor Trumbe,
May we try to find common ground without resorting to insults? Let us put our finger, without judgment, on the difference between us. You are a speciesist and I am not. You take the ethical stance “that assigns different worth or rights to beings on the basis of their species membership, such as assigning vastly different rights to animals and to humans.”
I get that. And, I agree, "most" people agree with your stance. Most people have problems viewing nonhuman animals as equal to human animals, be they black, Jewish, female, young, old, checkered, or striped. I have the unfortunate ability to empathize, sincerely and palpably empathize, with beings who suffer no matter the species, color, creed, or race. I feel their pain as if it were happening to me. That ability, that empathy, is my curse because it does alienate me from many people. It is a curse I was born with and, in a very real sense, blessed with. I consider it a gift. What else can I do? But, I do understand your point of view. I honestly do.
What a joke, indeed !! The fact is T. Casey Brennan wrote comic books...very comical, mrtrumbe.
Better check your facts...outside of the comic section....lol.....hahaha
Yes, I do apologize for my attempt at humor in the "Professor" greeting, but honestly, have you not been just a wee bit pompous and arrogant in your professorial use of language? How you do seem to enjoy looking down your nose. I imagined you as a stern professor, complete with wire-rimmed spectacles, black cap and gown, correcting impudent pupils and rewarding yourself with a keen sense of superiority and glee.
Put your glasses on and compare the two quotes, mrtrumbe, and you will see that the comic book writer added the word, PATHETIC....lol.....Who's being dishonest, mrtrumbe ??
"Now I can look at you in peace; I don't eat you any more." ~Franz Kafka,
That's a beautiful quote by Franz Kafka, Janet....I love that gentleman, may he rest in peace :)
I really think someone should post these wonderful comments on Facebook for all the world to see. Some of them, I might say the majority, are absolutely brilliant!
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6729869n
There IS a better way to teach children the humane treatment and care of animals. :)
I am in complete agreement that the world needs to see the true faces of you and your fellows...
I am sick and tired of this whole deal going on with you jokes. I don't think you realize how much more harm you are doing because of this debate then you are doing good. All of the kids raising animals on the farm including my brother have had just about enough of your idiotic protest against Wagner Farm. The "Innocent" children you say are clueless to the issue are not even on your side. Just leave the 4H program out of this. You are causing these kids a lot of emotional distress. Is that what you want?
Furthermore, America will NEVER stop eating meat, but apparently you are all so stubborn that you think that will change. Guess again. You will fight for this issue until you die, but nothing will ever change. God I am typing this and still can't believe you people. Just go away. We don't give you guys a hard time for eating meat do we?
Oh, and to the Vegans acting like they are all innocent in this matter. I would just like to drop this out there. Yesterday I got news that someone had called in a complaint about Wagner Farm apparently hitting the pigs. When asked when they had seen this happen they answered Friday. Wow. Really? Because guess what. The pigs were not even on the farm Friday.
If you are going to play this game against Wagner Farm then just try to be honest. I know that's hard for people who comprise of 5% of what the rest of the world agrees with, but just try.
A correction in one of my above rants
"We don't give you guys a hard time for eating meat do we?"
Correction
"We don't give you guys a hard time for eating Vegetables do we?"
People often say that humans have always eaten animals, as if this is a justification for continuing the practice. According to this logic, we should not try to prevent people from murdering other people, since this has also been done since the earliest of times.
~Isaac Bashevis Singer
Hey buddy I hate to tell you, but try as we might you can't change the fact that people kill, and also way to completely blow what I said out of proportion. Just stop replying, because you obviously don't know how to hold a debate without warping things into something totally different.
"People often say that humans have always eaten animals, as if this is a justification for continuing the practice"
People often say? It is in history books for god sakes, it is in the bible. It is our God given right to rule over the animals of this world. And that means using them for food. I am all for treating animals humanely in slaughter houses, but how dare you attack our 4H kids, and a farm that raises the animals as humanly as possible.
Stop trying to compare killing animals for food to murder, the Holocaust, or slavery, it is not even closely relevant to this issue. It may be relevant in your mind, but not to ours. To us it is just plain insulting. So stop. Seriously.
If one person is unkind to an animal it is considered to be cruelty, but where a lot of people are unkind to animals, especially in the name of commerce, the cruelty is condoned and, once large sums of money are at stake, will be defended to the last by otherwise intelligent people. - Ruth Harrison, author of Animal Machines
See look there. I will reiterate.
"I am all for treating animals humanely in slaughter houses, but how dare you attack our 4H kids, and a farm that raises the animals as humanly as possible."
Stay on topic and stop quoting from other crazy ass vegans. No one in the 4H program condones animal cruelty. So I am not sure what your going on about.
"It is the fate of every truth to be an object of ridicule when it is first acclaimed. It was once considered foolish to suppose that black men were really human beings and ought to be treated as such. What was once foolish has now become a recognized truth. Today it is considered as exaggeration to proclaim constant respect for every form of life as being the serious demand of a rational ethic. But the time is coming when people will be amazed that the human race existed so long before it recognized that thoughtless injury to life is incompatible with real ethics. Ethics is in its unqualified form extended responsibility to everything that has life." Albert Schweitzer
When many said that blacks were not humans, slavery abolitionists were ridiculed -- those such as my ancestors, working within the Underground Railroad were threatened and condemned for harboring black slaves and helping them escape--then slavery was abolished; animal rights activists are ridiculed and harrassed today for speaking out for and seeking freedom for non-human animals...and today, with the advances in technology, advances such as camera phones and YouTube, great strides are being made in the animal rights arena because now the truth can be shown to the world--no more are the vicious cruelties of the slaughterhouses hidden....the world knows...and humans are evolving. Just as the injustice of slavery was abolished, so too will the atrocities of animal torture and brutality be abolished.....if I were a livestock farmer, I'd start looking into soybeans
I'll bite.
1. Were the 4-H children transported with their animals to the slaughterhouse where they could participate in the final step in the process of learning "where their food comes from"? If not, why not? At our county fair last year, a small boy wanted to see the entire process. His father took him to a small locker to watch the animals be butchered. Most farm kids have seen animals being butchered on their farms. Its part of raising meat animals. Also, some 4H programs participate in meats and carcass judging where the kids actually go to a processing plant and do just that-- evaluate the meat while its hanging.
2. Were the 4-H children allowed to choose whether their animal would live or die? Billy, Mary: Would you rather have $300 for your lamb and let the lamb live, or would you rather have $300 for your lamb and have the lamb slaughtered? If not, why not? At most fairs there is a choice whether the kids would like to sell their animals or not. Most kids sell their animals because that's the reason they raised them- for human consumption.
"Why put the animals, not to mention the children, through all that terror and stress of an auction and transport, when they could have been simply and peaceably transferred to a sanctuary?" I'm really questioning why a trip on a trailer to a processing plant is considered "terror and stress" and a trip on the same trailer to a santuary is considered "simple and peaceable." Theatrics much?
I think that the Wagner Farm program is great, and wish that more farms could be preserved in this way!
You know what I am done arguing with extremists, because nothing will come out of it. You continue to insult our culture by comparing slavery to the slaughter of animals. I mean how low can you get? Just shut up. It is embarrassing, and completely wrong.
Animals are Animals end of story. No ifs, ands, or buts. They are here for our consumption, and America or any other country for that matter, will ever make eating meat illegal. I mean how idiotic do you think our government is? You can't force vegan-ism on a whole damn nation you twats. Sorry for my heavy use of strong words, but your actions are so lame it makes me want to heave up everything in my stomach. Go eat your veggies and let me eat my meat. Maybe I will rally together my own group and protest in front of your houses? Learn to except that you cant always have your way in life, and this is one of those areas. It simply won't happen.
Thanks for nothing.
"Oh, I know animals suffer but I love my steak.": The self-serving resolution of the "meat-parodox"..
We always must remember it's not a matter of "what's" for dinner but "who's" for dinner as we routinely and wantonly slaughter sentience for... unneeded meals to the tune of billions of animals per year. Surely we can do better and it's really easy for most of us to stop consuming pain and misery.
~ Mark Bekoff